UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[ColourPurple]

You've heard this line before I'm sure but once the media ban is lifted, a lot more can come out.

I know with a lot of cases other victims, or people who witnessed aggressive behaviour etc come forward after a conviction. But with this case, with her alleged victims being tiny babies, who can't talk or remember their baby days, when they grow up, I'm not sure we will hear much, even if she's guilty.

 

[Dotta]

The Final Victim - Baby Q

Attacked a day after the doctor asked for her to be removed from duties.

Prosecution: "We say that what Lucy Letby did to baby Q was to inject him with air and a clear fluid, and she was trying to kill him".

Lucy Letby trial: Nurse tried to murder baby a day after doctor asked for her to be removed from duties, court hears

Lucy Letby denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others on a hospital neo-natal unit.

news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[MsBetsy]

If dr Stephen Brearey had his suspicions for about a yr how come he never had someone watching & making sure she weren't left unattended?
He was the head of the neonatal unit. Does that count for nothing?

Wouldn't it be the job of administration to assign someone to supervise a staff member? Would a doctor have that authority?

Also, there WAS someone watching whether or not Lucy was left alone with a patient- Dr. Jayaram.

So there may have been other doctors watching her, but not on an official level. It's probably hard to give quality care to a patient if you have to worry about keeping an eye on a nurse at all times.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

But perhaps the prosecution will / are arguing that LL was caught in the act by RJ whilst caring for child K.
The DM podcast went into further depth around how LL was found to be 'doing nothing' when he walked in the room. I wasn't convinced by the the written articles but the podcast I felt gave a greater sense of LL being 'caught out'. I imagine it to be like the way a kid might stare at you if caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
For example when discovered by Ravi, she was not seemingly engaged with treating the baby. She was by his account turned with her body facing his, doing nothing much in particular.
Prompting Ravi to take action.

Thank you for mentioning the podcast. The print reporting was not convincing to me either but hearing the more in depth reporting of the podcast was more compelling.

 

[Sundial]

It sounds like everyone knew there was something weird going on. Just they didn't know what it was. After the first three deaths, the unit manager did a review to try and figure out commonalities. (Referenced in the daily mail article above.)

From the article mentioned, February was also interesting. In the review it was claimed
In February there were additionally no concerns at all with staff levels either; so staffing (or lack of) also appears to have been ruled out imo.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I don't know exactly how things are in the NHS but where I work, the nursing management is completely separate from the physician management. The physician medical director of our unit, for instance, is not within the chain of command for the nurses. If the physicians have a concern about a nurse, they have to go through nursing management. The doctors can also be disciplined by their own management if they demonstrate unprofessional behavior towards nurses.... such as bullying. It's not like the 1960s** where the nurses all stand up to give their chairs to the doctors anymore. jme/jmo. Any UK nurses want to weigh in on this?

**I was not around for the 1960s and am relying on recollections from my nursing professors when I went to school years ago!

 

[esther43]

If guilty, I don't think we'll ever know the motive or if even LL would know. I'm sure there'll be documentaries and books exploring that , if she's guilty.

I pondered before whether, if guilty, her comments about fate were relevant. Whether in her head she justified things by thinking of herself as somebody who just created the circumstances (by injecting air, adding insulin to etc) and then fate decided whether the baby lived or died.

"
“But then sometimes I think how is it such sick babies get through and others die so suddenly and unexpectedly. Guess it’s how it is meant to be.” She added: “I think there is an element of fate involved. There is a reason for everything.”"


All IMO

Lucy Letby told fellow nurse there was ‘element of fate’ in baby deaths

Nurse Lucy Letby told a colleague there was an “element of fate” in the deaths of babies after allegedly killing three children.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I think you're right, the motive is just obvious but we don't really know anything about the defendants background to be assured that she hasn't always had a darker side.
I've read that people who may take pleasure from acts similar to the alleged crimes, may show signs in childhood. For example torturing animals, drawing blood, that kind of thing.
Theres no evidence of that here yet though and if there were, would we know about it?
It has been shared that she had a thyroid condition that developed as a child. If left untreated it can cause learning disabilities and MH issues. It seems LL was recieving treatment from age 11 for this but I do wonder, what prompted the concern to get this checked out and addressed and whether LL had any side effects from the condition.

 

[esther43]

I know, but somebody somewhere has to act.

Diffusing the moral responsibility, even upwards, means that nobody wants to drink from the poisoned chalice. Then we have delays.

Any citizen can go to the police if a murderer is suspected as being on the loose killing defenceless babies.

Why would anyone at the highest heights of the hospital hierarchy delay calling the police?

Sometimes, it’s not enough to cover one’s back by escalating concerns ‘upstairs’.

There might come a time when any one of us has to take the necessary action (when it’s obvious that others are ‘happy’ with the status quo).

I’m not even convinced that she’s guilty, the whole thing is completely bizarre, but something was going on.

Certainly enough was going on to call in the police. Even the consultants themselves now regret not doing so.

Calling in the police is definitely what they were trying to do. In a centralised structure, decision making power sits at the top. They followed the legislative framework and in the end it seems they didn't give up, they overturned the CEO. What more do you want?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't know exactly how things are in the NHS but where I work, the nursing management is completely separate from the physician management. The physician medical director of our unit, for instance, is not within the chain of command for the nurses. If the physicians have a concern about a nurse, they have to go through nursing management. The doctors can also be disciplined by their own management if they demonstrate unprofessional behavior towards nurses.... such as bullying. It's not like the 1960s** where the nurses all stand up to give their chairs to the doctors anymore. jme/jmo. Any UK nurses want to weigh in on this?

**I was not around for the 1960s and am relying on recollections from my nursing professors when I went to school years ago!

have times changed that much? Is nothing sacred anymore?

im going to wave my prospective medical career goodbye and join the clergy.

 

[Sundial]

It doesn’t matter how he framed it, the point is that she failed to attach any significance to it suggesting she is not looking out. Her image manipulation is an ongoing thing so would presumably take any opportunity to make that illusion. Not say “I’m fine, must work”. Which to me and seemingly everyone is bizarre.

im going to try and name that coping mechanism. To quote from Rocky the film, “it’s not about how hard you can hit, it’s about how hard you can get hit and keep on going“. Seems fitting to me. Tbh though I can’t really place much because as magicarp says considering these circumstances I would expect anyone to need time off including pugilists. A little break to recuperate and then head back in but that’s not what we see. I’m sure she is different but that doesn’t mean much really. She may indeed be someone who keeps those moments to herself and in private which judging by her texts is also fitting. So so long as she is affected, that by itself is normal.

What I find most extraordinary about this; earlier in the trial (cases A-D I think?), we hear text discussions from a colleague where she openly said she was (something along the lines of) upset etc and couldn’t talk about it “just now”. Her colleague advised her to speak to a counsellor (which she didn’t want to/refused etc).
These deaths stack up and further along the line we have yet to hear her express needing a break, time off or anything. By the time O, P and Q happen, I must agree, her behaviour/not taking a step back, even a day off to compose or anything is most unusual.

The triplets mother (I believe) stated LL was in pieces (“almost as upset as them) over the deaths. So, why would one (as upset as the parents), then continue working the next day where we then have the remaining triplet?
All very odd IMO.

 

[esther43]

I think they are two different lines of management. But the problem is two fold. Nursing problems LL (director of nursing) and trust mortality outcomes (medical director)
The latter is usually the higher and more accountable of the two I believe.

 

[katydid23]

I was thinking more about her showing some kind of nervousness, something different in her texting style, or something, if she thought they were onto her. Even when this doctor we heard from today suggested she take the day off tomorrow, it didn't appear to put her off at all. If guilty, surely you would have some feeling of fear that you had been found out. You wouldn't just continue as before, IMO.

Even if INNOCENT, I'd think she would not want to continue as before, knowing that co-workers were beginning to talk and be suspicious.

Even if innocent, surely you would have some feeling of fear that you would be falsely accused, after so many babies in your care had sudden collapses.

I'd be wondering if someone was trying to frame me, or if I was having a real bad run of luck. But I wouldn't want to continue putting myself in a position of looking like the guilty party.

Why not take a break, so if the spike in collapses continues, she'd not be the scapegoat anymore?

 

[Sundial]

And when you put it like that, it does make sense. There is something about LL's relationship with Dr choc that makes me think it could be a case of 'keep your friends close but your enemies closer'
Was she using him to get a feel for 'what the drs thoought' ? She was letting him fill in blanks in clinical pictures, bowing down to his superior knowledge base when he was pointing out things I suspect she knew already.
Was there a genuine attraction there on her part I wonder.

This makes me think back to her asking her colleague if “she thought he was being odd”.

When discussed, she said; he wanted her opinion in something. If I remember rightly, wasn’t it this same discussion where he’d asked what shift she was working?

Perhaps she picked up on his being “odd”..

This is strange in itself because she doesn’t seem to recognise the suggestion in time off/compassionate leave, counselling etc or her colleagues saying they are “concerned about you needing a break” etc.

Yet she find this doctors response as being; “do you think he’s being odd?”

All MOO

 

[katydid23]

As examples of behaviour that one could expect from someone actively trying to play the environment you could expect some things. For instance LL fishing for information from involved people ie managers etc. It’s not particularly difficult to trick people into revealing information. trying to present oneself as a responsible and capable individual so making it more likely that you are not excluded from the current goings on and banter. Trying to make other people look worse than you or bad ie deflection. Trying to curry favour. Over representation of your own positive traits or efforts. Over emphasis of others mistakes and negatives. Using something to Excessively impact another’s state of mind ie “don’t do that, remember last time you failed”.

all of the above and more could be used by an individual trying to keep an eye or ear out for any hint of trouble ahead of time and would show this individual is indeed trying to hide something.

And I think we saw several examples of the above behaviour by LL.

She did fish for info from doctors and shift leaders and co-workers.

She did try to present herself as the most capable and responsible individual and did so pretty often.

She did point out others mistakes and missteps in her texts to co-workers, and she also did some deflections in order to cover herself.

So perhaps this individual was allegedly trying to hide something?

 

[esther43]

What I find most extraordinary about this; earlier in the trial (cases A-D I think?), we hear text discussions from a colleague where she openly said she was (something along the lines of) upset etc and couldn’t talk about it “just now”. Her colleague advised her to speak to a counsellor (which she didn’t want to/refused etc).
These deaths stack up and further along the line we have yet to hear her express needing a break, time off or anything. By the time O, P and Q happen, I must agree, her behaviour/not taking a step back, even a day off to compose or anything is most unusual.

The triplets mother (I believe) stated LL was in pieces (“almost as upset as them) over the deaths. So, why would one (as upset as the parents), then continue working the next day where we then have the remaining triplet?
All very odd IMO.

The thing I find interesting about babies OPQ, is that they seem so rapid. I mean geez, she just got back from holiday and boom, just like that, three in a row. And also, wasn't child N right before she headed off? If LL is guilty of the alleged offences then for some reason she must have felt particularly compelled.
There would seem to be a lot of risk taking if it were true that she was on a binge like this.
The only rationale, I can think for a person coming back in with such force would be if deep down inside her, she actually wanted to be caught.
Either that or she is completely in denial to herself and on such a high from it all she's deluded perhaps similar to what you might see in the early onset of some sort of manic episode, with ideas associated with grandiosity and that sort of thing, ..'life saving / hero mode'
But it's strange, her colleagues don't seem to point towards her being out of sorts.
Were the medical team watching LL like a hawk? Did she essentially 'take the bate' and commit a crime in front of a captive audience after the consultant discussion. Or was her time up before she instigated the alleged final collapse?

 

[esther43]

This makes me think back to her asking her colleague if “she thought he was being odd”.

When discussed, she said; he wanted her opinion in something. If I remember rightly, wasn’t it this same discussion where he’d asked what shift she was working?

Perhaps she picked up on his being “odd”..

This is strange in itself because she doesn’t seem to recognise the suggestion in time off/compassionate leave, counselling etc or her colleagues saying they are “concerned about you needing a break” etc.

Yet she find this doctors response as being; “do you think he’s being odd?”

All MOO

Yeah, I think if guilty she could be interested in knowing what both her her friend and Dr choc are thinking. So by asking one what they think of the other, she gets the answer to both #doublewin

 

[Imogenia]

Calling in the police is definitely what they were trying to do. In a centralised structure, decision making power sits at the top. They followed the legislative framework and in the end it seems they didn't give up, they overturned the CEO. What more do you want?

This hierarchical structure may not be the best thing when it comes to swift reporting of possible serious crimes to the police.

The consultants themselves regret not going straight to the police when they were met with a less than enthusiastic response from the executive administration.

Doctor ‘wishes he had gone straight to police over Lucy Letby concerns’

Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.chardandilminsternews.co.uk

I’m quite sorry for the team of consultants in many ways, but, like them, agree that they should have acted differently. I’m not really blaming them, the hierarchy above did not respond well.

Act of Parliament: Duty to Report Swiftly

What would I want (for the future)? This crime (serial killing of babies in hospital), if suspected, should be legislatively put on par with the legislation on reporting terrorism. Any person with reasons to suspect another of terrorism must of course directly inform the police. No waiting on any slow chain of command allowed there!

To think of going through all that they did to become parents, only for their helpless little babies to suffer and be killed seems like the most merciless terrorism to me. If that is what happened.

 

[esther43]

This hierarchical structure may not be the best thing when it comes to swift reporting of possible serious crimes to the police.

The consultants themselves regret not going straight to the police when they were met with a less than enthusiastic response from the executive administration.

Doctor ‘wishes he had gone straight to police over Lucy Letby concerns’

Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.chardandilminsternews.co.uk

I’m quite sorry for the team of consultants in many ways, but, like them, agree that they should have acted differently. I’m not really blaming them, the hierarchy above did not respond well.

Act of Parliament: Duty to Report Swiftly

What would I want (for the future)? This crime (serial killing of babies in hospital), if suspected, should be legislatively put on par with the legislation on reporting terrorism. Any person with reasons to suspect another of terrorism must of course directly inform the police. No waiting on any slow chain of command allowed there!

To think of going through all that they did to become parents, only for their helpless little babies to suffer and be killed seems like the most merciless terrorism to me. If that is what happened.

There would be a lot of regret but I don't think the doctors say that they wish they'd gone to the police, it was Myers who suggested that.
RJ said, the wished they'd stood up earlier. They should have followed the whistle blowing policy. It will be interesting to see if that's what they did. Dr Breary sounded very close to is with Karen

 

[Imogenia]

There would be a lot of regret but I don't think the doctors say that they wish they'd gone to the police, it was Myers who suggested that.
RJ said, the wished they'd stood up earlier. They should have followed the whistle blowing policy. It will be interesting to see if that's what they did. Dr Breary sounded very close to is with Karen

It’s in the title of the link that I posted. In the article, the quote was provided by Dr Ravi Jayaram
“In retrospect, I wished we had bypassed them and gone straight to the police.
“We by no means were playing judge and jury at any point but the association was becoming clearer and clearer and we needed to find the right way to do this. We were in an unprecedented situation”.

I’m sure there is a lot of sorrow and regret.

If the police had become involved some babies’ lives could have been saved, (if the consultants are correct, and LL is guilty). I believe that the consultants acted throughout in good faith (even if they are wrong, and she is innocent).

I do not underestimate the stomach-churning sheer terror of going to the police with a very serious allegation. Sometimes it is all that you can do, because the alternative is much worse.

 

[katydid23]

You know,

Despite chilly courtroom,
the Jury (bundled in scarves) must be listening to all of this
transfixed!!!

JMO

I hope so. They are going to have to be very focused if they are going to be able to sort this out.