UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Imogenia]

In the UK?

Okie dokie, I'll stand corrected on that point, that in hind site, he wishes he'd have by passed SM and gone straight to the police.
But I'm still thinking KE, the med director and CEO manager messed up way more than he did.
They literally put everything back onto the consultants until Dr B had to spell it out that any further decisions taken in relation to LL he would no longer take personal responsibility for.

You’re absolutely correct, those to whom the concerns were passed definitely messed up more than the consultants.

Dr B ultimately had to exert his clinical and moral authority in an unambiguous fashion, going by what you say, before steps were taken.

 

[Tortoise]

“My opinion was that (Child O’s) terminal collapse was him being the victim of an air embolus. [...]

Jurors were told Dr Evans had concluded in an earlier report, in June 2018, that the cause for Child O’s collapse was trauma to the liver.

[...]

He later learned from the police that the doctor who observed the rash had further explained it disappeared a short time after.

Dr Evans said: “This made a big difference to the interpretation of the rash. If it’s a purpuric rash it will last quite some time – days, hours.”

Baby allegedly murdered by nurse Lucy Letby in Chester Hospital was injected with air, court told

 

[LorriB]

Our posts were about different things.

I quoted some of the evidence which would show she wasn't particularly alert to how her actions may be perceived by others and behaved in a risky and headstrong fashion, whereas you quoted texts showing others praising her.

They were indeed about different things.

None the less, your post showed how others may have perceived her actions negatively. My post wasn't about addressing yours anyway, I only mentioned it as you had some examples there as a comparison point.

Fair enough if you don't feel that's what they represented.

 

[Tortoise]

They were indeed about different things.

None the less, your post showed how others may have perceived her actions negatively. My post wasn't about addressing yours anyway, I only mentioned it as you had some examples there as a comparison point.

Fair enough if you don't feel that's what they represented.

Don't think I've said anything about what they represented about others' opinions of her.

The post I was responding to was about how LL might have felt and the examples were to expand on that line of posts. By all accounts think we are all already aware that her nursing colleagues didn't suspect her.

 

[Tortoise]

"Dr Brearey said there were "no more events" after Letby left the neo-natal unit.

He said: "It was the same staff doing the same job and there were no sudden collapses."

The consultant told Simon Driver, prosecuting, that between the deaths of Child D and Child O he was unaware that two other babies had returned blood results which showed abnormally high insulin levels."

Doctor asked for Lucy Letby to be taken off shift, court hears

Letby, 33, denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others between June 2015 and June 2016

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

No one seems to have brought up the move to day shifts. Wonder who was behind that.

JMO

 

[LorriB]

Don't think I've said anything about what they represented about others' opinions of her.

The post I was responding to was about how LL might have felt and the examples were to expand on that line of posts. By all accounts think we are all already aware that her nursing colleagues didn't suspect her.

Fair enough

 

[LorriB]

Ben Myers KC, defending, put it to Dr Evans that he "chops and changes" when reviewing evidence to support his theory of air embolus.

"That is incorrect, I apply my clinical experience to the evidence in front of me," Dr Evans said.

Mr Myers accused the expert of attempting to "knit" pieces of evidence together to "support the allegation" against Ms Letby.

"Nothing about a small discoloured rash on the chest wall matches any description in the literature of air embolus, does it?", the lawyer said.

Lucy Letby: Baby triplet died after trauma to liver, jury told

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of killing the baby triplet after returning from a holiday in Ibiza.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[LorriB]

Chester article also up. The cross examination sounds pretty heated.

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23388932.baby-allegedly-murdered-nurse-lucy-letby-injected-air/

 

[Sundial]

LL: No, but it happens. Don’t need to thank me, I’m pleased you were there, think we work well together. Sorry for my loss of composure moment

Doc: I was trying to say thanks for checking I was okay. We do work well together

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 21: The Defendant, “I certainly don’t fancy him… just a nice guy.” - The Mail.

This part I find interesting;

“Sorry for my loss of composure moment”

Typically is apparently “safe” and calm. She did mention to him previously how another nurse was “faffing”, but here she makes a point of highlighting she’d “lost it”, I wonder if she said something to the other nurse (was this the same baby?)

Secondly, Dr choc seems a little offended or taken aback. He states “I was trying to say thanks for checking I was ok”

*I was trying to say thanks”.. Did his message become misinterpreted? Or did he mean one thing and she rebuffed it. Just found this a bit odd.
My own opinion of course

 

[Tortoise]

I just wanted to thank those who who are posting the updates on the trial - particularly @Tortoise - and to add how much I'm appreciating the input from those with the medical background who help to explain some of the details. As a complete layperson I'm in a similar position to the jury, and I'm very glad that the jury will be given directions from the judge, who will refer to evidence that 'they may want to take into account' or with which they might want to recall 'what the Defence said about it' etc.

Like most people I'm thinking that the Defence aren't planning to use medical evidence, and that the timetable makes it look as though the Defence may not be very long. Indeed going back to the Defence statement it seemed broadly to state that Defence relied on the prosecution being unable to prove its case. So how successful it has been in challenging the prosecution evidence, and in making the 'coincidence' angle something that jurors will remain uncertain about, is obviously a matter of opinion. And of course sometimes it's the case that the KC for the defence can do no more than conduct the best cross examination he/she can, because that's their duty to the Court and to justice. We'll see, I guess.

Thank you Marie Bell.

I fully agree.

Babies P and Q to cover, house search, and perhaps other aspects of police investigation.

11 court days left in March, 12 in April, 20 in May, to include deliberations.

Closing speeches and summing up are going to be humongous tasks, perhaps 2 weeks or more in my estimation.

JMO

 

[Legal]

In my opinion (and experience to some extent), these public sector organisations such as hospitals, schools, social services, have all the people at the bottom working really hard, stressed, managing ever increasing workloads with reduced staffing levels, low salaries, poor morale but doing their very best, while the senior management team are only concerned with covering their a**e, protecting their huge salaries and keeping their pensions.

Of course, when the inevitable s**t hits the fan, those at the bottom get thrown under the bus.

 

[Tortoise]

This part I find interesting;

“Sorry for my loss of composure moment”

Typically is apparently “safe” and calm. She did mention to him previously how another nurse was “faffing”, but here she makes a point of highlighting she’d “lost it”, I wonder if she said something to the other nurse (was this the same baby?)

Secondly, Dr choc seems a little offended or taken aback. He states “I was trying to say thanks for checking I was ok”

*I was trying to say thanks”.. Did his message become misinterpreted? Or did he mean one thing and she rebuffed it. Just found this a bit odd.
My own opinion of course

I think her loss of composure is referring to "blubbering" with him as they discuss again later. Other nurse faffing was different baby - during baby N's intubation.

I think LL has misunderstood him. My interpretation is she thought he was thanking her for being there during the resus of baby O, and she follows up with no need to thank me & 'we work well together', but he has to tell her he was thanking her for being there for him, and then adds we do work well together.

Disconnect IMO.

 

[LorriB]

Wasn't it said that "A consultant doctor noted Child O had an area of discoloured skin on the right side of his chest wall which was purpuric.He noted a rash at 4.30pm, which had gone by 5.15pm."

So I understand from that it was noted in the clinical notes?

Then why does it appear this information wasn't available to Dr Evans in 2018 when he did his first review?

He (Dr Evans) later learned from the police that the doctor who observed the rash had further explained it disappeared a short time after.

Dr Evans said: “This made a big difference to the interpretation of the rash. If it’s a purpuric rash it will last quite some time – days, hours.”

 

[Tortoise]

Wasn't it said that "A consultant doctor noted Child O had an area of discoloured skin on the right side of his chest wall which was purpuric.He noted a rash at 4.30pm, which had gone by 5.15pm."

So I understand from that it was noted in the clinical notes?

Then why does it appear this information wasn't available to Dr Evans in 2018 when he did his first review?

He (Dr Evans) later learned from the police that the doctor who observed the rash had further explained it disappeared a short time after.

Dr Evans said: “This made a big difference to the interpretation of the rash. If it’s a purpuric rash it will last quite some time – days, hours.”

I think there might have been an error in the initial time reported during opening speech.

The evidence yesterday was -

Dr Brearey recalls Child O's first crash shortly after 14:30 on 23 June. He helped intubate the baby boy. He tells the court during this procedure he noticed an 'unusual' rash on the boy's chest

He said the rash was purpuric was 'noticeable'. He tells the court this was 'very, very concerning' in a neonate - his first thought for the case of the rash was infection. He notes Child O was on antibiotics and a blood test ordered

Child O crashed several more times that afternoon. On his last and fatal collapse at 16:15, Dr Brearey says that there was 'years of experience in that resuscitation' and that it was going as he would have wanted

'But we just weren't getting a response back in terms of what we would normally expect', he said. Resus continued for well over 30mins but no pulse was recorded for Child O

The medic tells the court that by late afternoon the earlier rash noticed had 'vanished', which he found 'perplexing' - he said that ruled out it being a purpuric rash, as they're around for a 'good few days'
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

the sequencing evidence reported was -

Letby records: 'Approx 1440 [Child O] had a profound desaturation to 30s followed by bradycardia. Mottled++ and abdomen red and distended...'
Shift leader Melanie Taylor is recorded as entering the neonatal unit at 2.46pm.
The doctor records Child O was intubated '1503-1508' 'at first attempt'.
Dr Stephen Brearey records for Child O at this time: 'small discoloured ? purpuric rash on right wall'
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

 

[LorriB]

So do you think the length of time the rash was visible was recorded? Because one report seems to suggest it was (Chester) and the live report seems to suggest it wasn't.

 

[Sundial]

In my opinion (and experience to some extent), these public sector organisations such as hospitals, schools, social services, have all the people at the bottom working really hard, stressed, managing ever increasing workloads with reduced staffing levels, low salaries, poor morale but doing their very best, while the senior management team are only concerned with covering their *advertiser censored**e, protecting their huge salaries and keeping their pensions.

Of course, when the inevitable s**t hits the fan, those at the bottom get thrown under the bus.

This ^^^ Absolutely agree.

 

[Tortoise]

So do you think the length of time the rash was visible was recorded? Because one report seems to suggest it was (Chester) and the live report seems to suggest it wasn't.

I'm not sure which Chester report you are referring to. Opening speech?

 

[JosieJo]

Dr Evans said that inflicted trauma to the liver took place at some point and an amount of air was put down the infant’s nasogastric tube which caused vomiting and swelling to his stomach.

Mr Myers said: “I suggest that vigorous chest compressions can cause or are capable of causing internal injuries to the liver.”

Dr Evans replied: “I have never seen it.”

Fellow expert witness, neonatologist Dr Sandie Bohin, said she too had never seen liver damage from CPR.

She told the court she concluded that injections of air “with no innocent cause” were responsible for Child O’s “unexpected” deterioration.

Dr Bohin said the small discoloured mark observed on Child O’s right chest wall was more probably due to an injection of air rather than liver trauma

Baby allegedly murdered by nurse Lucy Letby was injected with air, court told

Expert witness Dr Dewi Evans said that he believed the child was the victim of an ‘air embolus’ – in which gas bubbles block blood supply.

www.independent.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

Also just in general regarding the doctors' actions, lets not forget that day-to-day these doctors are day-to-day engaged in treating and life saving ALL of their other patients.

One reason for passing the problem to management is because they don't have time to 'watch' a nurse who may or may not be causing a problem. There's no budget available to just 'give' someone the job of 'watching' someone else. And who would that be? Everyone's role is already critical. These are high intensity surroundings where people are working twelve hour exhausting shifts making life/death decisions every single day.

I honestly think it's extremely unfair to say that the doctors or frontline medical staff 'should have done more'. IMO they were on the front line, and relying on those who sit in offices all day to come up with the solution to the problem they had been presented with. If that isn't the job of those in management positions, then what are they getting paid for? Just to turn a blind eye?!

Spot on. Who on earth would it be 'keeping an eye?' when there are issues with staffing? And on what planet could a nurse manager ask a fellow nurse to do this anyway? "I want you to keep an eye on your colleague LL as she might be harming the babies". Ridiculous.