UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Sweeper2000]

Just musing, but I wonder if a handwriting expert has had a look at it? I bet they'd leap at the chance!

Yeh it’s certainly an interesting aspect of this case. It’s the kind of thing that makes me think the defence will present stuff at some point. That note itself will be presented and mr Myers will have to point out it’s meanings as written by ll. I don’t see how he could do that without a professional backing him up.

 

[Anxala]

Further on from the discussions re. the infamous note, the part that I'd most like to understand is "I pay every day for that night". I imagine we'll never know what she meant.

It doesn't say that, marynnu. It says 'I pay every day for that' and underneath 'kill myself right now'.

https://static.independent.co.uk/2022/10/13/17/COURTS%20Letby%20%2016514845.jpg?quality=75&width=1368&auto=webp

 

[Anxala]

Yeh it’s certainly an interesting aspect of this case. It’s the kind of thing that makes me think the defence will present stuff at some point. That note itself will be presented and mr Myers will have to point out it’s meanings as written by ll. I don’t see how he could do that without a professional backing him up.

I'm far more interested in the prosecution's summing up and their explanation and justification for including the txts and notes in their 'evidence of guilt' bank.

Personally, I find all the LL notes more in favour of and valuable to the defence rather than the prosecution.

JMO etc etc.

ETA. Not saying innocent, just saying hope the prosecution at this late stage of the game has a very credible 'join the conclusive dots' in place that doesn't hinge or depend upon either those notes or txts.

 

[Kittybunny]

Hi all, I have been reading along here, and I'm not from the UK so I want to verify my understanding that this is similar to the US in which each individual charge will be evaluated separately, on its own merits so it's possible that she could be found guilty on some charges, and not for others, correct?

 

[Tortoise]

I agree. I've never thought the note was indicative of anything either way. It's too contradictory.

The note, in my opinion, is being incorrectly taken as "one" document. Yes, it's obviously one physical document but it clearly wasn't written at one sitting. It's just a random collection of ramblings written in various moods recorded over a period. If you mentally separate the arious statements in it and imagine them written on different pieces of paper they would have a erh different impact to most people.

If she's convicted I think we will forever hear the talking heads on the inevitable innumerable TV docs stating how it's a clear indication of guilt because its an easy thing to say and who is going to contradict them? I think they'd be wrong, though.

I agree it was written in various moods, but I don't think it's as ambiguous a piece of evidence as is regularly stated.

The possibilities in this case are -

- for the charges - guilt or innocence
- for the ‘I am evil’ note - truth and lies, because she’s either innocent or guilty


Taking the note's contradictory expressions of guilt and innocence, one should ask -

would an innocent person lie about being guilty?
would a guilty person lie about being innocent?

But ignoring the admissions of killing, being evil and awful, and ignoring the protestations of not doing anything wrong and slander, discrimination and victimisation, one needs to examine also whether the following statements are truth or lies -

I don't deserve to live
I don't deserve mum & dad
world is better off without me
I'll never have children or marry
I'll never know what it's like to have a family
hate myself for what this has (something)


So what has been said previously, about truth and lies in the note -

If she’s guilty - she's being truthful about guilt and what she doesn’t deserve, and her fears for the future, and lying about innocence. Guilty people lie about being innocent, there’s nothing new or controversial in that. No further explanations are required for the note.

If she’s innocent – the whole note is truthful, but speculative explanations are also required because it's unreasonable to say she would lie to herself about being guilty, evil and awful – so these explanations are that she is writing what others have said she is and has missed out reference to them, and her fears for the future are - she thinks she will never get married because she was unfairly victimised and dismissed from her job, or because she feels unlovable - or because she thinks she will be found guilty for charges not made yet, based apparently on a grand-scale conspiracy amongst police, independent experts, and colleague doctors and consultants to lie about matters in evidence (the state of health of the babies and the manners of death), and although not arrested yet, when she is - her eventual trial will be unfair and counsel will not represent her adequately, and she has missed out reference to all that. However, the 'I don't deserve...' statements are not explained by missing references to other people, so they must be representative of her anguish and general belief in her undeservedness of supportive parents and a life.

Look at the contortions and the hurdles to be overcome between these opinions on the note. The second requires speculation about so much. What would motivate anyone to speculate on a whole bunch of missing information that is not evident? IMO, only a preconceived bias, to make the note fit with one’s stance.



Her general belief in her undeservedness

The evidence about her, over the year, doesn’t reveal low self-esteem (IMO):

LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”

LL to YG: “Thank you. That’s really nice to hear as I gather you are aware of some of the not so positive comments that have been made recently regarding my role which I have found quite upsetting. Our job is a pleasure to do and just hope I do the best for the babies and their family. Thank you to you & [another colleague] for your support x.”

LL adds due to the skillsets, she tends to work in room 1.
LL adds she feels "most at home with ITU and the girls know that Im quite happy to be in 1 so works out well most of the time."
Doc: “I like it when you're in ITU - everything feels safe and well organised"
LL: "Awe that's nice to hear, Huw often says that too - see what happens tomorrow."
LL adds there is a potential job opening on the unit which she believes she might be lined up for.
Doc: 'If you didn't want it now, could you defer?'
LL: 'Yes good to know and worth thinking about...& yes, I'm sure she would let me defer.'

LL: Just walking home. Parents very grateful for everything. Nice to have some fresh air.

LL messages the doctor to say 'apparently' she had sounded bossy around the time of the baptism call for O.
The doctor says he would interpret it as being proactive.
LL says she has 'broad shoulders' and had apologised, saying it could have been interpreted as being overly direct.

[Dr Brearey] recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'. 'She looked me in the eye very confidently'.


Find an example where she thinks she is no good, undeserving of praise, or where she is self-deprecating - she accepts compliments without any apparent modesty, she even boasts of gratitude shown by parents suffering the most unimaginable pain.


“I don't deserve…”

(All in my opinion) –

‘I don’t deserve mum & dad’ is an egocentric statement; although it recognises that she thinks her parents love and support her unconditionally, it’s about her receipt, not about what they deserve. She didn’t write ‘mum & dad don’t deserve this/will be devastated’. It matches with some of her texts, which (IMO) have shown that she is focused on herself and doesn’t worry about the feelings of others.

What is notably absent from the note is how she leaps from ‘victimisation’ and ‘discrimination’ to ‘I am evil’ and ‘I don’t deserve’, and with these notes being written on the same paper, I doubt it is because of any major intervening event, so it appears to be due to a collapsing of an internal construct.

If she is contemplating ending her life (she writes “kill myself right now”), she never states that it is because of overwhelming feelings about a third party or parties, no guilt, shame or remorse, despite writing “I killed them on purpose”, it looks as if it is because she sees a bleak unhappy future. With one reference to the world being better off, she doesn’t say anything about how she has impacted anybody in the world in particular. Her apparently suicidal frame of mind appears to me to be driven by a sense of powerlessness. In a somewhat lazy, disinterested and unaccountable way she begins interjecting labels like evil and awful all over the place, with no accompanying self-analysis - it just is, I just am. So, we see she is either a nurse who is worthy of everyone’s highest respect and gratitude, or she is plain “evil” - two ends of the spectrum, nothing in between, no fluctuation between sometimes deserving, and other times not.

If she is “evil” that is an absolute, she could never have been worthy of respect, it must have been a mask, but why would an evil person have apparently selfless concerns about not being deserving and not being good enough? I believe it could be explained by a very limited internal value system - she gets rewards (deserves love) when she could wear the mask, and she came crashing down when she realised that this status quo cannot ever be reinstated, her feared exposure will lead to no rewards in the future. I don’t believe there are any cues that ‘I don’t deserve’ comes from feeling intrinsically ‘bad’, because nowhere does regret or remorse for being ‘evil’ or ‘awful’ enter her language, so I believe she is feeling angry with herself that she cannot control the image that has been shattered - she is undeserving, not good enough, didn’t play smart enough, in her own mind. I don’t think being undeserving is about being unacceptable by her own standards, because that would be irreconcilable.



To return to your point about documentaries, if the jury finds her guilty and if she is actually guilty, the note will have been an actual confession and the ‘I’ve done nothing wrong’ will have been a lie. Where is there room for anything else? I very much doubt after 6 months of evidence, the jurors are waiting on that one note, those lines, to decide what the evidence shows. No jury in doubt about the evidence would convict.



All MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Hi all, I have been reading along here, and I'm not from the UK so I want to verify my understanding that this is similar to the US in which each individual charge will be evaluated separately, on its own merits so it's possible that she could be found guilty on some charges, and not for others, correct?

Each charge is individual but how the jury arrives at a verdict is a matter for them. They are allowed to (but don't have to) use similarity of facts and circumstances across the cases in their deliberations.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm far more interested in the prosecution's summing up and their explanation and justification for including the txts and notes in their 'evidence of guilt' bank.

Personally, I find all the LL notes more in favour of and valuable to the defence rather than the prosecution.

JMO etc etc.

ETA. Not saying innocent, just saying hope the prosecution at this late stage of the game has a very credible 'join the conclusive dots' in place that doesn't hinge or depend upon either those notes or txts.

Presumably they couldn’t find anything else to help them build a picture. I agree though will be interesting to see how they paint it.

i don’t really take anything from the notes, seems consistent with someone absolutely bewildered by the situation. Imo does favour the defence as well.

 

[DinerMite]

At its most basic the note is simply the 5 stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance

Imo of course

 

[katydid23]

Does this refer to the babies we already know about? Or 2 others?

Would also be interesting to see what the report from the Liverpool specialist said

If there were two other babies with abnormal blood sugar levels, I'd like to hear more about it.

I know there are ways to figure out if they are from internal issues, like diabetes, or if they are from insulin poisoning.

I would think if they determined it was insulin poisoning, we would hear something about it?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm far more interested in the prosecution's summing up and their explanation and justification for including the txts and notes in their 'evidence of guilt' bank.

Personally, I find all the LL notes more in favour of and valuable to the defence rather than the prosecution.

JMO etc etc.

ETA. Not saying innocent, just saying hope the prosecution at this late stage of the game has a very credible 'join the conclusive dots' in place that doesn't hinge or depend upon either those notes or txts.

I read the no evidence note like this as well.

checks her own conscience “I haven’t done anything wring” ie has a clean conscience.

the ”no evidence“ reads like they don’t have any reason to keep me off work or can’t accuse me of anything

”hide away” reads like “I’m acting like I’m ashamed when I haven’t done anything wrong and should be walking around with my head held high”.

so all in all, “I haven’t done anything wrong, they have no reason to think I’ve done anything so why am I not in work where I want to be”. I think it’s fitting for what we do know about her. Apparently Very work focused. In my experience hard workers tend to be conscientious, you need to worry more about people who pretend to do the work because the devil makes work for idle hands. It’s curious that she doesn’t actually point out that she is a victim at this point as well. Seems more concerned with being back in work than she is with her own sufferings. Tha tight imply she has thought yeh I’m off the unit but do they have a reason or “evidence“. which is actually concessionary in nature. Ie “I’m a victim but they might have good reason to put me on clerical”. wouldn’t be completely self centred in that case.

jmo.

 

[katydid23]

FOIA?

Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another (FDIA)​

 

[katydid23]

Policies are interesting. In a potentially very serious case the legal advisors (for the NHS Trust) would be consulted. If the police were informed prior to any NHS Trust Disciplinary Policy being invoked, the legal advisors (for the police) could be onboard also.

NHS Policies are written in order not to (for instance) exceed the dictates of ongoing relevant UK legislation, (primary or secondary). However, Policies must take account of the relevant legislation (such as the Public Interest Disclosure Act, as amended, as we see here).

NHS Policies could also be updated in the light of Judge-made law (case law).

NHS Policies should normally be followed by NHS staff. However, such NHS Policies are not, in themselves, legislation (such as an Act of Parliament would be, and which must be followed).

Very occasionally, it is possible to be legally negligent by strictly adhering to everything in a NHS Policy. This is one reason why senior staff in a NHS Trust would consult the solicitors advising the Trust.

The legal advice may be (very occasionally) not to follow certain parts of a NHS Policy in a given situation. Senior staff cannot be held legally negligent for obtaining and following appropriate advice from the appointed solicitors.

Therefore, it is impossible to say exactly how much she was told, or when.

However, most nurses would consult their Trade Union to help them establish why Trust Management was electing to act in a certain way?

"However, most nurses would consult their Trade Union to help them establish why Trust Management was electing to act in a certain way?"

I agree that most probably would--especially if they believed they were being unfairly treated. But what if they were acting inappropriately or illegally? Like maybe stealing drugs or something? I think they might not take things further with their union in cases like that so as not to cause formal investigation?

I wonder if LL consulted her Trade Union reps?

 

[gerbil]

If there were two other babies with abnormally high blood sugar, I'd like to hear more about it.

I know there are ways to figure out if they are from internal issues, like diabetes, or if they are from insulin poisoning.

I would think if they determined it was insulin poisoning, we would hear something about it?

Insulin poisoning wouldn't cause high blood sugar though would it?
Insulin lowers blood sugar levels.

 

[Dotta]

I agree it was written in various moods, but I don't think it's as ambiguous a piece of evidence as is regularly stated.

The possibilities in this case are -

- for the charges - guilt or innocence
- for the ‘I am evil’ note - truth and lies, because she’s either innocent or guilty


Taking the note's contradictory expressions of guilt and innocence, one should ask -

would an innocent person lie about being guilty?
would a guilty person lie about being innocent?

But ignoring the admissions of killing, being evil and awful, and ignoring the protestations of not doing anything wrong and slander, discrimination and victimisation, one needs to examine also whether the following statements are truth or lies -

I don't deserve to live
I don't deserve mum & dad
world is better off without me
I'll never have children or marry
I'll never know what it's like to have a family
hate myself for what this has (something)


So what has been said previously, about truth and lies in the note -

If she’s guilty - she's being truthful about guilt and what she doesn’t deserve, and her fears for the future, and lying about innocence. Guilty people lie about being innocent, there’s nothing new or controversial in that. No further explanations are required for the note.

If she’s innocent – the whole note is truthful, but speculative explanations are also required because it's unreasonable to say she would lie to herself about being guilty, evil and awful – so these explanations are that she is writing what others have said she is and has missed out reference to them, and her fears for the future are - she thinks she will never get married because she was unfairly victimised and dismissed from her job, or because she feels unlovable - or because she thinks she will be found guilty for charges not made yet, based apparently on a grand-scale conspiracy amongst police, independent experts, and colleague doctors and consultants to lie about matters in evidence (the state of health of the babies and the manners of death), and although not arrested yet, when she is - her eventual trial will be unfair and counsel will not represent her adequately, and she has missed out reference to all that. However, the 'I don't deserve...' statements are not explained by missing references to other people, so they must be representative of her anguish and general belief in her undeservedness of supportive parents and a life.

Look at the contortions and the hurdles to be overcome between these opinions on the note. The second requires speculation about so much. What would motivate anyone to speculate on a whole bunch of missing information that is not evident? IMO, only a preconceived bias, to make the note fit with one’s stance.



Her general belief in her undeservedness

The evidence about her, over the year, doesn’t reveal low self-esteem (IMO):

LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”

LL to YG: “Thank you. That’s really nice to hear as I gather you are aware of some of the not so positive comments that have been made recently regarding my role which I have found quite upsetting. Our job is a pleasure to do and just hope I do the best for the babies and their family. Thank you to you & [another colleague] for your support x.”

LL adds due to the skillsets, she tends to work in room 1.
LL adds she feels "most at home with ITU and the girls know that Im quite happy to be in 1 so works out well most of the time."
Doc: “I like it when you're in ITU - everything feels safe and well organised"
LL: "Awe that's nice to hear, Huw often says that too - see what happens tomorrow."
LL adds there is a potential job opening on the unit which she believes she might be lined up for.
Doc: 'If you didn't want it now, could you defer?'
LL: 'Yes good to know and worth thinking about...& yes, I'm sure she would let me defer.'

LL: Just walking home. Parents very grateful for everything. Nice to have some fresh air.

LL messages the doctor to say 'apparently' she had sounded bossy around the time of the baptism call for O.
The doctor says he would interpret it as being proactive.
LL says she has 'broad shoulders' and had apologised, saying it could have been interpreted as being overly direct.

[Dr Brearey] recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'. 'She looked me in the eye very confidently'.


Find an example where she thinks she is no good, undeserving of praise, or where she is self-deprecating - she accepts compliments without any apparent modesty, she even boasts of gratitude shown by parents suffering the most unimaginable pain.


“I don't deserve…”

(All in my opinion) –

‘I don’t deserve mum & dad’ is an egocentric statement; although it recognises that she thinks her parents love and support her unconditionally, it’s about her receipt, not about what they deserve. She didn’t write ‘mum & dad don’t deserve this/will be devastated’. It matches with some of her texts, which (IMO) have shown that she is focused on herself and doesn’t worry about the feelings of others.

What is notably absent from the note is how she leaps from ‘victimisation’ and ‘discrimination’ to ‘I am evil’ and ‘I don’t deserve’, and with these notes being written on the same paper, I doubt it is because of any major intervening event, so it appears to be due to a collapsing of an internal construct.

If she is contemplating ending her life (she writes “kill myself right now”), she never states that it is because of overwhelming feelings about a third party or parties, no guilt, shame or remorse, despite writing “I killed them on purpose”, it looks as if it is because she sees a bleak unhappy future. With one reference to the world being better off, she doesn’t say anything about how she has impacted anybody in the world in particular. Her apparently suicidal frame of mind appears to me to be driven by a sense of powerlessness. In a somewhat lazy, disinterested and unaccountable way she begins interjecting labels like evil and awful all over the place, with no accompanying self-analysis - it just is, I just am. So, we see she is either a nurse who is worthy of everyone’s highest respect and gratitude, or she is plain “evil” - two ends of the spectrum, nothing in between, no fluctuation between sometimes deserving, and other times not.

If she is “evil” that is an absolute, she could never have been worthy of respect, it must have been a mask, but why would an evil person have apparently selfless concerns about not being deserving and not being good enough? I believe it could be explained by a very limited internal value system - she gets rewards (deserves love) when she could wear the mask, and she came crashing down when she realised that this status quo cannot ever be reinstated, her feared exposure will lead to no rewards in the future. I don’t believe there are any cues that ‘I don’t deserve’ comes from feeling intrinsically ‘bad’, because nowhere does regret or remorse for being ‘evil’ or ‘awful’ enter her language, so I believe she is feeling angry with herself that she cannot control the image that has been shattered - she is undeserving, not good enough, didn’t play smart enough, in her own mind. I don’t think being undeserving is about being unacceptable by her own standards, because that would be irreconcilable.



To return to your point about documentaries, if the jury finds her guilty and if she is actually guilty, the note will have been an actual confession and the ‘I’ve done nothing wrong’ will have been a lie. Where is there room for anything else? I very much doubt after 6 months of evidence, the jurors are waiting on that one note, those lines, to decide what the evidence shows. No jury in doubt about the evidence would convict.



All MOO

"The conscience is clean...
Never has been used."

 

[katydid23]

Insulin poisoning wouldn't cause high blood sugar though would it?
Insulin lowers blood sugar levels.

Oops, thanks...fixed it

 

[Imogenia]

"However, most nurses would consult their Trade Union to help them establish why Trust Management was electing to act in a certain way?"

I agree that most probably would--especially if they believed they were being unfairly treated. But what if they were acting inappropriately or illegally? Like maybe stealing drugs or something? I think they might not take things further with their union in cases like that so as not to cause formal investigation?

I wonder if LL consulted her Trade Union reps?

I think that most nurses would be advised to contact their Trade Union Representatives in any case going before management. Nurses have been called before their professional body for helping themselves to first aid material (plasters or such) just for the family going on holiday.

Mitigation is always important, even if stealing drugs, so the nurse will usually benefit from being accompanied by someone knowledgeable about the Trust’s Disciplinary Procedure, no matter what they have been accused of, generally speaking.

 

[DinerMite]

I think that most nurses would be advised to contact their Trade Union Representatives in any case going before management. Nurses have been called before their professional body for helping themselves to first aid material (plasters or such) just for the family going on holiday.

Mitigation is always important, even if stealing drugs, so the nurse will usually benefit from being accompanied by someone knowledgeable about the Trust’s Disciplinary Procedure, no matter what they have been accused of, generally speaking.

I am sure the defense said in their opening she was going through grievance process which 9/10 involves TU

 

[Sweeper2000]

I am sure the defense said in their opening she was going through grievance process which 9/10 involves TU

I’m very confident they were involved. Say she was confident there wouldn’t be a problem at the start of it she might give them some time to present their reasons. Then after the time they didn’t or couldn’t say anything substantial she then would have gone to the tu to find out exactly what her rights are.if she didn’t go there first.

 

[Tortoise]

Yeh it’s certainly an interesting aspect of this case. It’s the kind of thing that makes me think the defence will present stuff at some point. That note itself will be presented and mr Myers will have to point out it’s meanings as written by ll. I don’t see how he could do that without a professional backing him up.

I'm thinking she was probably asked about the note during police interview. They asked her about the Facebook searches and the other items found in her house and the photo of the card on her phone.

 

[esther43]

FOIA?

I'm thinking she was probably asked about the note during police interview. They asked her about the Facebook searches and the other items found in her house and the photo of the card on her phone.