UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Sweeper2000]

In this article it sounds like nobody could really believe it might be Lucy. Dr. Breary is quoted as saying,





More from Breary:




No one wanted to think this was LL's doing. I really believe they looked into every other possible explanation. To me it sounds like the opposite of scape-goating.

The rest of this article is very thorough and really takes the listener through the way that these suspicions unfolded.

Lastly, it's mentioned that after Breary's request that Lucy not return to work was denied by Rees:



That suggests a certain coldness and maybe even.... triumph?.... to me? I guess I can't imagine feeling happy and upbeat if I was under scrutiny for my association with baby deaths, whether people thought I was incompetent or malicious, even if the management didn't take me off duty. The very idea gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Would you also not think it does show that she is still seemingly oblivious to any of that scrutiny? Doesn’t seem to be on the lookout really. Dr j and baby k are an example. Doctor comes barging into the room asking what you are doing and you don’t bat an eyelash?

after a death it’s suggested that you take a day off and your only response is “nope, gotta work”.

nothing about anything she has ever done or said would give the impression that she knows she could be hung drawn and quartered.

 

[notsure]

Today it was reported that when Dr Brearey called the duty exec senior nurse in the urgent care division, she was 'familiar with concerns,' but refused to stop LL from working, saying there was no evidence of wrong-doing.

This is the first time I've realised that people within the unit were aware of the concerns of those doctors. Presumably, someone must have been keeping their eye on her from that point? Watching and finding nothing suspicious. How else would the exec senior nurse be so confident that LL was not up to no good? IMO






https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1635613260253675525

 

[esther43]

In this article it sounds like nobody could really believe it might be Lucy. Dr. Breary is quoted as saying,





More from Breary:




No one wanted to think this was LL's doing. I really believe they looked into every other possible explanation. To me it sounds like the opposite of scape-goating.

The rest of this article is very thorough and really takes the listener through the way that these suspicions unfolded.

Lastly, it's mentioned that after Breary's request that Lucy not return to work was denied by Rees:



That suggests a certain coldness and maybe even.... triumph?.... to me? I guess I can't imagine feeling happy and upbeat if I was under scrutiny for my association with baby deaths, whether people thought I was incompetent or malicious, even if the management didn't take me off duty. The very idea gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Just Wow! So am I reading this right, that Dr B was undermined to LL by a superior of Dr B? And she was gloating about it?

 

[esther43]

I don't understand.

Why would a Consultant call somebody who had no authority upon LL as not from her "division"??

JMO

I thought this too. 'urgent care' dept has nothing to do with neonatal? Neonatal is aligned with women's and children's and I'd have thought it would be the director of nursing in that division?

 

[MsBetsy]

Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Hospital boss refused to remove Letby from shift despite colleagues raising concerns about her presence and series of infant deaths

www.theguardian.com

Wow. So after the doctors called her again with concerns and informed her what had just happened to Babies O and P, she still claimed there was "no evidence," to even take her off the ward?

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Would you also not think it does show that she is still seemingly oblivious to any of that scrutiny? Doesn’t seem to be on the lookout really. Dr j and baby k are an example. Doctor comes barging into the room asking what you are doing and you don’t bat an eyelash?

after a death it’s suggested that you take a day off and your only response is “nope, gotta work”.

nothing about anything she has ever done or said would give the impression that she knows she could be hung drawn and quartered.

That's a bizarre response, IMO especially coming on the heels of two deaths in two days. Most nurses would go home if offered the chance after a situation like that.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Just Wow! So am I reading this right, that Dr B was undermined to LL by a superior of Dr B? And she was gloating about it?

That's how I read it.

Edit - or rather that Dr. B was trying to get Rees to take LL off duty and Rees (the on call nursing exec) refused. It's sort of implied that LL knew, or if she didn't know, she was pleased to be coming back to work the next day, despite having been encouraged not to.

 

[DianaWW]

Today it was reported that when Dr Brearey called the duty exec senior nurse in the urgent care division, she was 'familiar with concerns,' but refused to stop LL from working, saying there was no evidence of wrong-doing.

This is the first time I've realised that people within the unit were aware of the concerns of those doctors. Presumably, someone must have been keeping their eye on her from that point? Watching and finding nothing suspicious. How else would the exec senior nurse be so confident that LL was not up to no good? IMO

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He went on to say that none of the senior nursing staff could believe that LL could possibly be responsible until babies O and P. (Daily mail article shared above). So I don’t think that anyone was watching over her, or shared their suspicions, necessarily. JMO.

 

[notsure]

He went on to say that none of the senior nursing staff could believe that LL could possibly be responsible until babies O and P. (Daily mail article shared above). So I don’t think that anyone was watching over her, or shared their suspicions, necessarily. JMO.

Yes, that's probably it, and a big mistake on their part, if LL is guilty.

 

[Dotta]

You know,

Despite chilly courtroom,
the Jury (bundled in scarves) must be listening to all of this
transfixed!!!

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

That's a bizarre response, IMO especially coming on the heels of two deaths in two days. Most nurses would go home if offered the chance after a situation like that.

That’s exactly my point. If you wanted to play innocent you would jump at the opportunity to emphasise your own suffering. “Yes doctor, I think I should have the day off because it’s hit me so hard”.
you cover two different things with that, ie a display of your suffering ie poor me and poor innocent me Ie I’m acting like I haven’t done anything wrong. Like this experience was a negative rather than a positive.

tbh that reaction at this point is what I expect from her. Just not on other peoples level, trying to decipher whether or not her reactions show guilt or not is difficult.

its also an example of a non selfish nature. She didn’t jump at he opportunity to have a day off.

jmo

 

[Becci]

If dr Stephen Brearey had his suspicions for about a yr how come he never had someone watching & making sure she weren't left unattended?
He was the head of the neonatal unit. Does that count for nothing?

 

[DianaWW]

That’s exactly my point. If you wanted to play innocent you would jump at the opportunity to emphasise your own suffering. “Yes doctor, I think I should have the day off because it’s hit me so hard”.
you cover two different things with that, ie a display of your suffering ie poor me and poor innocent me Ie I’m acting like I haven’t done anything wrong. Like this experience was a negative rather than a positive.

tbh that reaction at this point is what I expect from her. Just not on other peoples level, trying to decipher whether or not her reactions show guilt or not is difficult.

its also an example of a non selfish nature. She didn’t jump at he opportunity to have a day off.

jmo

Or if guilty, it could be the opposite and be an example of very selfish behaviour. The shift she chose not to take off is when she is alleged to have attempted to murder the third triplet. MOO

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

That’s exactly my point. If you wanted to play innocent you would jump at the opportunity to emphasise your own suffering. “Yes doctor, I think I should have the day off because it’s hit me so hard”.
you cover two different things with that, ie a display of your suffering ie poor me and poor innocent me Ie I’m acting like I haven’t done anything wrong. Like this experience was a negative rather than a positive.

tbh that reaction at this point is what I expect from her. Just not on other peoples level, trying to decipher whether or not her reactions show guilt or not is difficult.

I agree that the reaction is expected for her. We know she kept trying to get back into Nursery Room 1 after the first collapse. It seems along those lines to "nope gotta go to work." And I understand what you are saying about trying to decipher whether being different from others is the same as being guilty. I agree it's important not to assume that being different means guilt. There are a lot of little social details that people have previously mentioned as suggesting guilt, which I don't agree with.

But, to me, LL's desire to keep going back to the intensive care room after collapses, when most people would benefit from a small break, as well as her apparent determination to remain on the unit, once again, at a time when most people would benefit from time away - that's interesting. She's not receiving pressure from her leadership to brush it off (something that is really common for nurses, especially when staffing is poor) - in fact we've seen texts that suggest the opposite. It really is a good, healthy idea to take some time away after being a part of a resuscitation that ends in death, especially multiple resuscitations like the ones that have been described. Unfortunately for many nurses this is not an option. However, she is being offered the chance. Refusing to do something that would generally be regarded as psychologically healthy suggests something about her personality and how she handles stress - perhaps maladaptively.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[ColourPurple]

.

That’s exactly my point. If you wanted to play innocent you would jump at the opportunity to emphasise your own suffering. “Yes doctor, I think I should have the day off because it’s hit me so hard”.
you cover two different things with that, ie a display of your suffering ie poor me and poor innocent me Ie I’m acting like I haven’t done anything wrong. Like this experience was a negative rather than a positive.

tbh that reaction at this point is what I expect from her. Just not on other peoples level, trying to decipher whether or not her reactions show guilt or not is difficult.

It sounds like he framed it as him being concerned about her needing a break, not as him being suspicious. So no need for her to do anything to convince him of anything. And her reaction is in line with her reaction to previous deaths, from Baby A onwards, where she didn't take any time off and said she wanted to be back in the room where it happened, to help her get over it. And in line with her previous "These things happen" type replies.

Plus, maybe , if guilty, she wanted the opportunity to kill again the next day, which is allegedly what she went on to attempt to do the next day!

all IMO

 

[esther43]

How does a staff base, who is used to losing 1-3 babies a year, go to 15 deaths in one year, without everyone on the unit (including LL) thinking something weird is going on?

 

[MsBetsy]

I was thinking more about her showing some kind of nervousness, something different in her texting style, or something, if she thought they were onto her. Even when this doctor we heard from today suggested she take the day off tomorrow, it didn't appear to put her off at all. If guilty, surely you would have some feeling of fear that you had been found out. You wouldn't just continue as before, IMO.

The only reason someone in that position would keep going despite the risk of being caught would be a lack of control over impulses, imo.

Otherwise, yes, I would expect a nurse to make every effort to show they are hardworking and meticulous about not making mistakes. Yet she acknowledges she left the handover sheet in the refrigerator, and is concerned about what Dr. G said to her after one of the incidents. So she seems aware they might believe she's making serious errors.

It is odd, though, that early on when colleagues suggest she needs time off from the deaths happening on her shift, she basically ignores the suggestion to get counseling or take some time off.

Instead of following their advice, she takes on even more extra shifts and the deaths continue.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

How does a staff base, who is used to losing 1-3 babies a year, go to 15 deaths in one year, without everyone on the unit (including LL) thinking something weird is going on?

It sounds like everyone knew there was something weird going on. Just they didn't know what it was. After the first three deaths, the unit manager did a review to try and figure out commonalities. (Referenced in the daily mail article above.)

 

[Eloise]

JMO but literally suboptimal care is the FIRST thing that anyone thinks about when something unexpected happens or a resuscitation doesn't go as expected. Debriefs after resus are a standard part of care and the purpose is to say, "hey, what did we do well, and what could we do better next time?" Part of the debrief includes maintaining a nonjudgmental/just culture environment to allow for total honesty and the greatest improvement.

Literally no one jumps straight to, "Yeah my coworker is deliberately harming babies." No one. JMO.

Right. I did a semester of a nursing degree way back when I was first out of school and decided it wasn't for me, but literally the first assignment we were given was on becoming a reflective practitioner. That was also a focus of the teaching degree I did complete. I don't imagine there is any 'working with people's lives' profession that doesn't emphasise critical reflection as a huge part of your daily practice.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Or if guilty, it could be the opposite and be an example of very selfish behaviour. The shift she chose not to take off is when she is alleged to have attempted to murder the third triplet. MOO

Oh dear, wasn’t aware of that. again that’s difficult to decipher. I wouldnt exactly suggest that as a cunning plan the same as doing stuff when people leave the room is so not a cunning plan. If anything it’s self incriminating. A cunning plan is Doing stuff under peoples noses like a magician, like the 7.15 collapse. Where you have witnesses backing you up not every witness saying “the baby died and she was the only one present.