UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[Jazmania]

Unfortunately baby E didn't have a post-mortem.

Oh yes, that explains it. Thanks

 

[Supernovae]

So dr Marnerides works in London yet he was the coroner for a few cases and reviewed the others. Just looking at his credentials and current work place I think this dr is high league. I’m wondering why he was responsible for some cases but not others. If he is high league was he drafted in specifically to examine these latest cases or was he working elsewhere at the time?

The original post mortems were all carried out by the pathologist at Alder Hey, I believe, and they were all originally certified as natural causes. Dr Marnerides was brought in to review after the Evans review, so I imagine the defence case will be that his conclusions have been shaped by the views of the other medics/the fact that he was instructed by the criminal investigation.

 

[JosieJo]

The images revealed a "rather large bruise" on the boy's liver that would have caused an internal bleed, Dr Marnerides said.
He said the "most likely" cause of the bruising would be "an impact type of injury".
"It doesn't tell us if it is accidental or not accidental, but tells us it is impact," he added.
The medic ruled out CPR as a possible cause of the bruise, saying: "I cannot convince myself that in the setting of a neonatal care unit, CPR would be a reasonable proposition to explain this.
"I don't think CPR can produce this extensive injury to a liver."

Lucy Letby: Baby suffered devastating internal injury, court hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of killing the infant on her return from a week's holiday in Ibiza.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

I bet mr Myers will hone in on how reliably dr marn can say the ”globules” indicate anything as well.

I remember when people were discussing baby E and the alleged traumatic injury in that case. With dr marns testimony today that a potentially lethal internal injury can give no outside indication that could explain that as well maybe. I’m wondering because a few people mentioned something about liver injuries and it seemed a bit like it was common knowledge that it can be undetected. Is it broadly known? I’m just thinking if it is broadly known I’m wondering if a NNU nurse would have come across that knowledge during training or otherwise?

 

[Sundial]

The images revealed a "rather large bruise" on the boy's liver that would have caused an internal bleed, Dr Marnerides said.
He said the "most likely" cause of the bruising would be "an impact type of injury".
"It doesn't tell us if it is accidental or not accidental, but tells us it is impact," he added.
The medic ruled out CPR as a possible cause of the bruise, saying: "I cannot convince myself that in the setting of a neonatal care unit, CPR would be a reasonable proposition to explain this.
"I don't think CPR can produce this extensive injury to a liver."

Lucy Letby: Baby suffered devastating internal injury, court hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of killing the infant on her return from a week's holiday in Ibiza.

www.bbc.co.uk

Just so absolutely saddening, whatever caused this, that poor little baby.

 

[Tortoise]

Dr Marnerides was brought in to review after the Evans review, <rsbm>

Have we been told when he was brought in?

 

[Sundial]

I'm sure after the first few babies, she made a comment about how Liverpool provided more support to employees after there had been a death too, so presumably she witnessed at least one death whilst at Liverpool . If guilty maybe this triggered her to recreate it over and over.

Also after Baby A when she wanted to go back in room 1 and the nurse in charge disagreed, LL said this was how she had "dealt with it before", again suggesting she had witnessed other deaths , though of course not neccessarily suspcious or unexpected ones.


All IMO

Indeed, I recall this too. Makes you wonder doesn’t it, the comment of “dealt with it before”.

Sure it could be nothing sinister but given the evidence of everything else it really makes you think further. It’s hard not to.
IMO

 

[Sundial]

The images revealed a "rather large bruise" on the boy's liver that would have caused an internal bleed, Dr Marnerides said.
He said the "most likely" cause of the bruising would be "an impact type of injury".
"It doesn't tell us if it is accidental or not accidental, but tells us it is impact," he added.
The medic ruled out CPR as a possible cause of the bruise, saying: "I cannot convince myself that in the setting of a neonatal care unit, CPR would be a reasonable proposition to explain this.
"I don't think CPR can produce this extensive injury to a liver."

Lucy Letby: Baby suffered devastating internal injury, court hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of killing the infant on her return from a week's holiday in Ibiza.

www.bbc.co.uk

Also the point which sticks out for me; is whilst CPR was ruled out for this injury, it was an *EXTENSIVE* injury no less (whether accidental or not) and it cannot be explained. So very sad.

 

[DianaWW]

The last couple of weeks have been really harrowing, in what was already a difficult case to follow. Just when I think it can’t get any worse, it does. These poor families

He said the severity of the injury was more consistent with that suffered in a road-traffic accident, adding: "I have also seen it in babies in the context of cases where they have suffered non-accidental types of injury."

Lucy Letby: Baby suffered devastating internal injury, court hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of killing the infant on her return from a week's holiday in Ibiza.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DianaWW]

Have we been told when he was brought in?

The BBC article from today says 2017.

 

[Tortoise]

The BBC article from today says 2017.

Thanks.

I'm wondering if @Supernovae knows if it was after Dr Evans's review.

 

[May72031]

Just looked at the CPS sentencing guidelines and I feel if she's found guilty, she will very likely get a whole life tariff- the sheer number of victims, their vulnerability, her duty of care towards them, the planning and premeditation, causing pain etc. Also the fact she might have caused a lack of trust in the integrity of the NHS ( similar to WC and the police force.) IMO, if she is found guilty of course.

People have got whole life tariffs for far less than the charges in this case.

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm sure after the first few babies, she made a comment about how Liverpool provided more support to employees after there had been a death too, so presumably she witnessed at least one death whilst at Liverpool . If guilty maybe this triggered her to recreate it over and over.

Also after Baby A when she wanted to go back in room 1 and the nurse in charge disagreed, LL said this was how she had "dealt with it before", again suggesting she had witnessed other deaths , though of course not neccessarily suspcious or unexpected ones.


All IMO

Replying to my own post as I've found the bit I'd remembered, after Baby A's death, re LL mentioning the support available at Liverpool's women's hospital.

After further messages are exchanged, the colleague suggests: "Why don't you go in 1 for a bit?"

Letby responds: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1."

Letby later adds: "Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job. Just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"

The colleague replies: "I am not going to forget but think you're way too hard on yourself..."

Letby referred to previous events she had seen in a women's hospital, and the support available following such events.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 26

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

Replying to my own post as I've found the bit I'd remembered, after Baby A's death, re LL mentioning the support available at Liverpool's women's hospital.

After further messages are exchanged, the colleague suggests: "Why don't you go in 1 for a bit?"

Letby responds: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1."

Letby later adds: "Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job. Just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"

The colleague replies: "I am not going to forget but think you're way too hard on yourself..."

Letby referred to previous events she had seen in a women's hospital, and the support available following such events.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 26

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Wasn't she a trainee in Liverpool?
She must have been under constant supervision there, no?

She might have observed such support in cases involved other staff there.

If guilty
I think she started in Chester, where she had opportunity to be alone with patients and was considered a fully trained nurse.

But who really knows?

JMO

 

[Anxala]

Also, I think as another poster might have mentioned already; was he “in the know” with the other consultants, or maybe even befriending her with his own suspicions instead?

Yeh I’m kind of getting the same vibe from it. It’s really unusual, I find it unlikely he wouldn’t have known what was being rumoured at least. It was mentioned people were talking about it and even when dr choc had asked for her to be seen in A&E, I found his reaction a little odd too.

She told him she’d made a fool of herself, when asked why, she said people were discussing what happened and she fainted. Of course it’s human nature (as a doctor/nurse or friend etc) to ask why you fainted or if your ok, need a lift etc (if she allegedly did indeed faint); but I was expecting him to possibly ask what was being discussed amongst those with her at the time.

Instead there’s nothing, he doesn’t really seem to follow it through or query the discussions.

RSBM

It's a possibility, isn't it? My impression of DrChoc over time is that he seems a little bit too full on, for want of a better term, in his communications with LL. Overly concerned, always ready with the 'poor you, how can I help, if you need to talk, I'm here' vibe. Always available, always ready to listen.

Which would be fine if we knew they had a thing going on but there's really no indication that there was anything going on or, at least, not anything in his favour.

I wonder what their relationship/communication was like after she was removed to admin. That would tell a useful story.

 

[ColourPurple]

Wasn't she a trainee in Liverpool?
She must have been under constant supervision there, no?

She might have observed such support in cases involved other staff there.

If guilty
I think she started in Chester, where she had opportunity to be alone with patients and was considered a fully trained nurse.

But who really knows?

JMO

In the article from 2013 she said "“I am currently undergoing extra training in order to develop and enhance my knowledge and skills within the Intensive Care area and have recently completed a placement at Liverpool Women’s Hospital.”

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/74654/chester_standard_babygrow_page_1070kb__28.03.2013_.pdf

 

[marynnu]

Wasn't she a trainee in Liverpool?
She must have been under constant supervision there, no?

She might have observed such support in cases involved other staff there.

If guilty
I think she started in Chester, where she had opportunity to be alone with patients and was considered a fully trained nurse.

But who really knows?

JMO

Just to clarify, she got a job at Chester after qualifying. She worked for a year or two before doing the specialist neonatal course at Liverpool - a postgrad course, if you will. This is the normal pattern for neonatal nurses. So although being supervised and assessed, she would have been entrusted with doing some care independently too.

 

[marynnu]

I bet mr Myers will hone in on how reliably dr marn can say the ”globules” indicate anything as well.

I remember when people were discussing baby E and the alleged traumatic injury in that case. With dr marns testimony today that a potentially lethal internal injury can give no outside indication that could explain that as well maybe. I’m wondering because a few people mentioned something about liver injuries and it seemed a bit like it was common knowledge that it can be undetected. Is it broadly known? I’m just thinking if it is broadly known I’m wondering if a NNU nurse would have come across that knowledge during training or otherwise?

I

I'm not sure about this being taught in training, I would think it's maybe too specialised for most nurses, though it's possible of course. A&E staff would certainly know about it, so it might be taught in relation to an A&E placement.
But you know what, I have discovered this from watching those fly on the wall A&E documentaries! They always scan after a serious RTA to check for internal injuries, for this very reason.

 

[Becci]

Was today's expert mentioned at the beginning or was he only known from today? I thought the 3rd expert died but i miss bits here n there.

 

[Dcflag]

How would such a liver trauma occur without visual bruising on the skin?