UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[Sweeper2000]

Does anyone know if the jury have been informed of what is an expected amount of deaths on the coch NNU ?

 

[katydid23]

How do you mean?

How do you mean?

Counts 1-7=NIGHT SHIFTS
Counts 8/9 =DAY SHIFT
Counts 10/11 = NIGHT SHIFT
Count 12= DAY SHIFT
Counts 13/14=NIGHT SHIFTS
Counts 15/16 DAY SHIFT
Count 17 =NIGHT SHIFT
Count 18 thru 22=DAY SHIFTS

 

[katydid23]

Has it actually been quoted in court that they moved her to see what happened?

Not in those exact words. Here is what Johnson said but I don't think there has been any testimony to back up WHO said that was the explanation.

Sky News:

14:29

Consultants moved Letby off night shifts after being concerned about her presence​

The prosecution has now moved onto Children L and M, twin boys who would both survive being attacked.
Prosecuting, Nick Johnson KC alleges that Letby attacked Child L first with insulin and "whilst that attack was under way she also attacked Child M".
Child L - who was born premature - was described as improved by the morning of 9 April 2016.
"By this time Letby was supposed only to be working day shifts because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths/life-threatening episodes on the night-shifts," the prosecution tells the court.

[ I don't think it was ever said she was moved to see if the deaths continued. It was more a matter of the night shifts being less staffed, with less support for nurses. So they moved her to see if that would correct the situation, if it was a lack of 'help and support/competence' issue. I don't think it was decided she was being malicious.]

I know it’s not important in the grand scheme of things but I so wish we had more access to general information/data.

I remember there being a stat where LL is the only staff member present for all of these incidents with the next highest being in attendance for 7 incidents.

I’d love to see all of the deaths and collapses in this time period and the staff present/designated nurse etc. it would be fascinating to see if there’s any correlation in a similar way of other staff members (for example if there’s any staff members present at a really High number of incidents if we widen the pool to every collapse and/or death in the time period and not just the ones LL had been charged with) I feel like it would give a really beneficial insight to just how significant (or not?) this is in terms of her presence.

In the first 3, Babies A, B and C she was the ONLY nurse present when they collapsed. And their designated nurse. I think that is significant.

After the 1st 3, it seems to me she, allegedly, began trying to be out of the room at the exact time. But she was still with the victims immediately prior in most instances.

 

[marynnu]

Counts 1-7=NIGHT SHIFTS
Counts 8/9 =DAY SHIFT
Counts 10/11 = NIGHT SHIFT
Count 12= DAY SHIFT
Counts 13/14=NIGHT SHIFTS
Counts 15/16 DAY SHIFT
Count 17 =NIGHT SHIFT
Count 18 thru 22=DAY SHIFTS

Did you mean there"s no pattern to the shifts? That's just normal. Still not sure I understand what you mean by not cut & dried!

 

[katydid23]

Did you mean there"s no pattern to the shifts? That's just normal. Still not sure I understand what you mean by not cut & dried!

What I meant was, It is not 'cut and dry' that she was taken off night shifts . It seems like she continued to do both during that entire span of time. Even after the date she was supposedly taken off night shifts she was still doing some of them here and there.

So it wasn't like they banned her from Night shifts, apparently.

So I agree with you, there was no exact pattern to her shifts, as a normal situation would be.

 

[ColourPurple]

Not in those exact words. Here is what Johnson said but I don't think there has been any testimony to back up WHO said that was the explanation.

Sky News:

14:29

Consultants moved Letby off night shifts after being concerned about her presence​

The prosecution has now moved onto Children L and M, twin boys who would both survive being attacked.
Prosecuting, Nick Johnson KC alleges that Letby attacked Child L first with insulin and "whilst that attack was under way she also attacked Child M".
Child L - who was born premature - was described as improved by the morning of 9 April 2016.
"By this time Letby was supposed only to be working day shifts because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths/life-threatening episodes on the night-shifts," the prosecution tells the court.

[ I don't think it was ever said she was moved to see if the deaths continued. It was more a matter of the night shifts being less staffed, with less support for nurses. So they moved her to see if that would correct the situation, if it was a lack of 'help and support/competence' issue. I don't think it was decided she was being malicious.]

Hmmn . No wonder there was confusion The Sky version seems to be based on a tweet by Judith Moritz on 12th October 2022, which says

"By this time Letby was supposed only to be working day shifts because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths / life-threatening episodes on the night-shifts" and is talking about Baby L.

Whereas The Guardian uses the same quote about correlation in it's 12th October article, but says the change to day shift happened 3 months after Baby K (not straight after Baby K like Sky/Judith are reporting). The Guardian's version matches up with what we are now being told happened.(ie that she was moved off day shifts on 27 June)

Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, told the jury that three months after the death of Baby K, in April 2016, Letby had been moved to day shifts “because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night shifts

Doctor interrupted nurse Lucy Letby’s attempt to kill newborn baby, court told

Consultant had started to link Letby to unexplained deaths and rushed to help infant, jury hears

www.theguardian.com

Lucy Letby trial day three: Nurse 'killed two out of three triplets' - and 'smiled after killing another premature baby girl at fourth attempt'

Lucy Letby allegedly used the haemophilia of one child as a cover under which to attack him.

news.sky.com

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[Passiton]

I definitely think (if LL guilty) he will be reprimanded in some way.

He was acting irrationally and unprofessionally because of his infatuation for her.

If Letby is found guilty I think there will be repercussions for many of the side characters in this debacle, especially the manager nurses who were named a few weeks ago, and Dr Choc who was only thinking

I wonder if we’ll get to hear from any of the named managers at any point? Will be interesting to see who the defence call at any rate, if anybody. Do we know when the defence is starting? Sorry if already covered, it’s been hard for me to keep up recently!

 

[Passiton]

I’ve considered this myself too as the trial has progressed; it looks bad on his part, almost like he is involved in doing harm aswell. Forwarding that email was absolutely shocking.
JMO

Part of me wonders if the defence agreed to disclosing the Dr Choc messages to create ‘reasonable doubt’, and if we’ll see more of that come Myers turn (though agreed I don’t think his involvement in any alleged events was anymore than what we’ve already seen)

 

[marynnu]

What I meant was, It is not 'cut and dry' that she was taken off night shifts . It seems like she continued to do both during that entire span of time. Even after the date she was supposedly taken off night shifts she was still doing some of them here and there.

So it wasn't like they banned her from Night shifts, apparently.

So I agree with you, there was no exact pattern to her shifts, as a normal situation would be.

Gotcha! I agree, she seemed to just do random shifts, as you expect as a nurse. Sorry you had to explain so much!

 

[squish]

I wonder if we’ll get to hear from any of the named managers at any point? Will be interesting to see who the defence call at any rate, if anybody. Do we know when the defence is starting? Sorry if already covered, it’s been hard for me to keep up recently!

I don't know, they're predicting the trial will finish late May, and will resume after Easter on the 17th April with the prosecution still having a little bit to go (police interviews, etc). I would guess the last week of April.

 

[katydid23]

I think the defense is going to have to focus on attacking the medical experts instead of questioning if LL was the only possible perpetrator. Because of the 1st 3 and the last 3 babies, it couldn't really be anyone else, IMO.

So if there is solid medical evidence that these were malicious attacks, LL is allegedly in big trouble. She would be the clear, prime suspect in 1st 3 cases as she was designated nurse and ,allegedly, the only one present at the collapses of first 3.

The next cases were more varied and convoluted. But even then, in every case, LL had been on the record for giving an IV or a treatment or a feeding, right before the sudden deterioration began. There were other nurses in and around those cases, but she was the only one that was CONSTANT in all of the unexplained collapses.

And the final 3 cases were pretty obviously connected to LL, IMO. She was being brazen and high risk by that time, for some reason. Coming back from vacation and on first day , 3 babies, back to back to back, under her care, have allegedly unexplained collapses.

So it seems the only realistic defense path is showing there are natural medical explanations and not malicious attacks involved. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I wonder if we’ll get to hear from any of the named managers at any point? Will be interesting to see who the defence call at any rate, if anybody. Do we know when the defence is starting? Sorry if already covered, it’s been hard for me to keep up recently!

Yes, I am really curious to see if any management turns up in the witness box. What a high stress situation that would be for them. What can they say?

 

[Parker Knoll]

Trial due to end late may early June. That gives 7-8 more weeks to verdict.

 

[Sweeper2000]

But almost no more evidence to be heard. Be very interesting to hear about what comes next.

 

[squish]

I think the defense is going to have to focus on attacking the medical experts instead of questioning if LL was the only possible perpetrator. Because of the 1st 3 and the last 3 babies, it couldn't really be anyone else, IMO.

So if there is solid medical evidence that these were malicious attacks, LL is allegedly in big trouble. She would be the clear, prime suspect in 1st 3 cases as she was designated nurse and ,allegedly, the only one present at the collapses of first 3.

The next cases were more varied and convoluted. But even then, in every case, LL had been on the record for giving an IV or a treatment or a feeding, right before the sudden deterioration began. There were other nurses in and around those cases, but she was the only one that was CONSTANT in all of the unexplained collapses.

And the final 3 cases were pretty obviously connected to LL, IMO. She was being brazen and high risk by that time, for some reason. Coming back from vacation and on first day , 3 babies, back to back to back, under her care, have allegedly unexplained collapses.

So it seems the only realistic defense path is showing there are natural medical explanations and not malicious attacks involved. JMO

Also witnesses for alleged attacks on babies E, I and K, and even the defense accepting that babies F and L were poisoned by insulin. All they can do is try to play as much as possible on reasonable doubt that it was Lucy who caused it (after all, they can't definitively prove it), and discredit and dismiss the eyewitness testimony.

 

[katydid23]

Trial due to end late may early June. That gives 7-8 more weeks to verdict.

That seems like a long time for the defense case. They must have some witnesses if it is going on that much longer.

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Trial due to end late may early June. That gives 7-8 more weeks to verdict.

Is that including the jury's deliberations, or will that just be when we've heard all the evidence and had the prosecution and defence's summings-up, then the judge's summary?

 

[katydid23]

If the defense has 4 to 6 weeks left to put up their case, we may hear fro a lot of witnesses/experts including the recall of several we already saw.

---I expect them to bring up a medical expert to say that CPR can and has caused liver injuries.

---I expect them to bring up an expert in 'bias confirmation' to tell us why the doctors were incorrect with their collective suspicions.

---I expect they will go through each case, in order, and either call back previous witnesses to delve further and/or to call in new ones. They may poke holes in crown's case that says LL was present in each case

---I expect they will bring in an expert on statistical analysis and will attempt to show that the crown's chart is faulty and biased against LL when it says she is the only one that could be the perp

---I expect they will try and get management in the witness box to say why they wanted her back on the unit and why they thought the doctors were wrong to suspect her.

---I expect they will try and bring in some coworkers who may sympathise with LL and say she was a great nurse and they didn't see her acting odd or suspicious in any way.

---They may bring in her parents or other family to say she never exhibited any signs of such a monstrous behaviour.

Any other ideas?

Of course, the prosecution will have the witness list and will be ready to cross examine all of the experts and there should be some fireworks.

 

[JosieJo]

Around 3 weeks of the upcoming 7 or 8 weeks the court will not sit because of Easter and 3 Bank Holidays in May.

Presumably at least a week if not more will be Jury deliberations with so many cases ?

 

[squish]

Around 3 weeks of the upcoming 7 or 8 weeks the court will not sit because of Easter and 3 Bank Holidays in May.

Presumably at least a week if not more will be Jury deliberations with so many cases ?

I’m not sure if that date includes the jury deliberations, that’s unpredictable but surely will take at least several days and possible weeks for this case.