UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[Parker Knoll]

Let's hope when that lazy lot (10 and a half days! For easter-egg eating!!) are back to work on the 19th that we finally get to the nuts and bolts and conclusion of the prosecution's case.

I can't wait for the defence to take the stand.

They are back on the 17th from 12pm then off on the 18th then back fully 19th.
This case really needs to finish now for everyone involved - it must feel intolerable.

 

[Dotta]

I guess these handover sheets include patients' details, treatments history, plans of care, staff responsible for treating a patient, etc.

Taking such sensitive and personal data out of hospital is a breach of professional confidentiality.

Period.

JMO

 

[esther43]

Esther, I'm really sorry, but I've never seen a handover sheet - we didn't use them. From what people say they shouldn't leave the hospital, but that's all I know.

Ah no worries! Thanks Mary. So I don't know if this is common practice or not or what might be included on a document like this. It seems like a repetition of medical notes, I don't see the purpose tbh!

 

[marynnu]

Ah no worries! Thanks Mary. So I don't know if this is common practice or not or what might be included on a document like this. It seems like a repetition of medical notes, I don't see the purpose tbh!

I'm sure it contains a summary of the main points about each baby, that's useful for all the nurses to know. We used to jot things down on handover, such as age, gestation, any notable medical or social problems. I doubt they were as detailed as the notes, but would be handy as a quick reference.

 

[esther43]

I'm sure it contains a summary of the main points about each baby, that's useful for all the nurses to know. We used to jot things down on handover, such as age, gestation, any notable medical or social problems. I doubt they were as detailed as the notes, but would be handy as a quick reference.

Ahh, I see, Ike a tool to aid handover potentially then, that usually occurs in the staff base away from the cotside.
In many hospitals there is now 'my care' where everything is digital and accessed on laptops.
In the staff bases there are often big screens, to run through all the patients via a centralised programme without the need for paper bits and pieces.
Though I have to say, it doesn't stop nurses running round with random bits of paper!!

 

[marynnu]

Ahh, I see, Ike a tool to aid handover potentially then, that usually occurs in the staff base away from the cotside.
In many hospitals there is now 'my care' where everything is digital and accessed on laptops.
In the staff bases there are often big screens, to run through all the patients via a centralised programme without the need for paper bits and pieces.
Though I have to say, it doesn't stop nurses running round with random bits of paper!!

Yes, the random pieces of paper, remember them well. Not to mention the never-ending list of things to do when I was shift lead. And let's not forget jotting things down on your arm - I saw a nurse do that when watching a hospital documentary last night, good to see they're keeping up with tradition!!

 

[Sundial]

Ahh, I see, Ike a tool to aid handover potentially then, that usually occurs in the staff base away from the cotside.
In many hospitals there is now 'my care' where everything is digital and accessed on laptops.
In the staff bases there are often big screens, to run through all the patients via a centralised programme without the need for paper bits and pieces.
Though I have to say, it doesn't stop nurses running round with random bits of paper!!

Handover sheets are usually disposed of in the hospital (unit you work in usually) in the confidential waste. It’s typically a large bag like a sack (or bin) and is normally then taken for incineration/burning. Many nurses use the handover sheets to jot notes on re patient care during the shift or at handover (eg if a doctor needs to do a review and it’s not been typed on the handover in time for the handover for example).

 

[katydid23]

It’s really strange to me, like really strange. I can only think that the large amount found suggest she is indeed highly attached to her work and job. That’s the only reason I can see why anyone would keep them at all regardless of innocence or not. This aspect isn’t strange to me, I can totally see someone doing it innocously. I would also be surprised if that was considered a gross mistake by managers. the following makes it highly strange.

I don't know if it is considered a gross mistake by management, but I do think they wouldn't like it. Those handover sheets are called that for a reason---they are meant to be handed over at end of shift and discarded . So why wasn't she doing so?

These kinds of reports are full of very personal medical info. They should never leave the unit. I can see how it might happen once or twice maybe. But shouldn't someone who is 'highly attached to her job' mend the situation by returning the paperwork or at least destroying it. Shredding or burning it would be very easy.

Why was it saved and moved around and kept under the bed?

I don't think your explanation is the only explanation for why she might have kept them.

The following is aside from the medical evidence.

To me it’s one aspect along with some others that suggests she truly wasn’t thinking it would go as far as police involvement. Two years of opportunity to get rid of but nope, they are there. It’s like the rest of her behaviour and coms and the seeming obliviousness to situation. If she had kept them as “trophies” they would certainly be seen as significant by her, certainly significant enough to be remembered and disposed of. Certainly significant enough to be organised in some way. One of the things that suggests to me that they aren’t held as significant is the fact that lots of them were found. Normal for her albeit against the rules. If it was only those med records they found I couldn’t say I thought they weren’t significant.

Again , I don't really agree with the assumption that she was oblivious to the seriousness of the situation. She was forced off the unit, told she could not work with the babies anymore because there was an investigation into the many collapses that happened when she was on duty. So she was aware.

Even though she knew all that, she kept all of the paperwork that was supposed to be handed in when she left work.

To me that suggests they were significant and did have some importance---even though they were not organised because I think they may have felt it was less suspicious if they were just thrown in a bag with a bunch of other random things and under the bed, it would be easier to say what you are saying---' she wasn't really aware they were there, it was not a big deal, just accidentally brought him, never thought twice about it....etc etc'

things That suggest insignificance about the notes to ll

1. notes not organised

May have been a strategy on her part to make their importance, imo

2. notes not disposed of even with ample opportunity and reason

Maybe because she wanted to keep them?

3. normalcy of keeping such notes for ll disregarding the rules

Is it normal? If I took some paperwork home from work that was not supposed to be taken, and it had highly personal medical information on it, is it normal to keep it around as opposed to returning it or destroying it?

4. Apparent lack of fear about them being found

Is it a lack of fear or something else? Maybe defiance, secret excitement, pride?

i don’t think we have heard about the notes as of yet. Im going to go out on a limb here, I suggest that if ll does indeed take the stand she will explain the notes including the post it notes. I really think it would be in her interests to do so. If not I will retract the above.

all in all I think the jury will consider these two highly opposed elements of the evidence. Her behaviour isn’t like that of someone who knows she has something to fear

I don't think she was ignorant to the facts that she had something to fear. She even asked her doctor friends early on, "Should I be worried about what the doctor is asking about me? "

Once she was forced out of the unit and told she could no longer work with patients, because of an investigation into the deaths of her prior patients, how could she not think she had something to worry about?

Weighed against the medical evidence. I really think it will come down to that.

jmo

 

[katydid23]

Let's hope when that lazy lot (10 and a half days! For easter-egg eating!!) are back to work on the 19th that we finally get to the nuts and bolts and conclusion of the prosecution's case.

I can't wait for the defence to take the stand.

I think they may have taken the long break. because of school vacations maybe? I know jurors often try to get out of duty by saying they can't sit on jury while kids are out vacation. Sometimes judges here will promise them the courts will give them those days off as well for Christmas, Easter, etc.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Yes, the random pieces of paper, remember them well. Not to mention the never-ending list of things to do when I was shift lead. And let's not forget jotting things down on your arm - I saw a nurse do that when watching a hospital documentary last night, good to see they're keeping up with tradition!!

I once put on (clean) scrubs out of the hospital laundry and found what I assume was code documentation on the pant leg. Just numbers, no identifying details. All I could think was, "Hmm, that's a good idea!"

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't know if it is considered a gross mistake by management, but I do think they wouldn't like it. Those handover sheets are called that for a reason---they are meant to be handed over at end of shift and discarded . So why wasn't she doing so?

These kinds of reports are full of very personal medical info. They should never leave the unit. I can see how it might happen once or twice maybe. But shouldn't someone who is 'highly attached to her job' mend the situation by returning the paperwork or at least destroying it. Shredding or burning it would be very easy.

Why was it saved and moved around and kept under the bed?

I don't think your explanation is the only explanation for why she might have kept them.


Again , I don't really agree with the assumption that she was oblivious to the seriousness of the situation. She was forced off the unit, told she could not work with the babies anymore because there was an investigation into the many collapses that happened when she was on duty. So she was aware.

Even though she knew all that, she kept all of the paperwork that was supposed to be handed in when she left work.

To me that suggests they were significant and did have some importance---even though they were not organised because I think they may have felt it was less suspicious if they were just thrown in a bag with a bunch of other random things and under the bed, it would be easier to say what you are saying---' she wasn't really aware they were there, it was not a big deal, just accidentally brought him, never thought twice about it....etc etc'

May have been a strategy on her part to make their importance, imo

Maybe because she wanted to keep them?


Is it normal? If I took some paperwork home from work that was not supposed to be taken, and it had highly personal medical information on it, is it normal to keep it around as opposed to returning it or destroying it?


Is it a lack of fear or something else? Maybe defiance, secret excitement, pride?


I don't think she was ignorant to the facts that she had something to fear. She even asked her doctor friends early on, "Should I be worried about what the doctor is asking about me? "

Once she was forced out of the unit and told she could no longer work with patients, because of an investigation into the deaths of her prior patients, how could she not think she had something to worry about?

im not sure your following my logic. Let me explain.

”why wasn’t she doing so”. I’m not defending it nor trying to say it’s irrelevant, only what in my mind is suggested by the presence of “a large amount of documents“. it’s not just handover sheets either I am actually expecting a large range of documents. Makes it worse if anything. I am trying to consider what is likely to be the reason for it without the lens of “right and wrong“, my suggestion is that it is what someone considered to be a workaholic would do. Really someone who lives and breathes their job and doesn’t leave work at work. this if true isnt Necessarily a positive especially contextually. It’s not the only reason I agree but looking at other aspects of the case I think it’s the only likely one.

“shredding or burning it” well that’s exactly what I think a person who is guilty and remembered keeping them would do, if she is guilty and remembers them it suggests high significance in her mind but no just left about the house Willy nilly. fire and forget kind of thing suggesting insignificance in her mind imo. I’m not given any reason to think that she is that cognitively impaired that if guilty she would knowingly keep them around for the inevitable and highly predictable house search by police, two years after events quite clearly indicating that a police investigation is inevitable if guilty. I think she would be fearful of keeping those records if she was guilty and knew about them, the fear would be the only motivation for disposing of any of them. Imo you can’t say they are significant simply by them Being found as its against the rules of self preservation without which you will most likely be put in an institution with or without your consent. To me it’s almost entirely contradictory to say they are significant to her yet were found by police when there is two years of opportunity to do as a guilty person would and dispose of evidence.

no her obliviousness imo is a continuous theme for her. No fear at all about the things she would be fearful of if she knew she was guilty. I’m not just talking about the suspension from clinical duties. Obviously she would be aware of impending doom if guilty after that meeting and presumably would do as a guilty person often does and dispose of the evidence. I think they probably held importance to her hence lots of them but not significance. Otherwise you would see a certain level of care involved like organisation of them or placement not strewn around the place. Imo you can’t marry that they were significant if guilty and found. Bit more like “nothing to fear officer, search my property at your leisure“. not “dispose of the evidence Before they get here”.

1. do you have anything that suggests the way they were found was a strategy?

2. I don’t believe there is anything to suggest these large amount of documents would hold such value to a guilty person that they would keep them “at all costs” including the ability to keep them if significant for longer as it’s against the rules of self preservation

3. I said “normal for her” not “it’s the done thing generally“.
it’s still the lots of them that makes me think it. Not normal for everyone but normal for her. In other words highly irregular but not unexpected.

4. the reason I think it’s a lack of fear is because if she was guilty she would know what the police finding them could potentially do instead more “nothing to fear officer, carry on”
anything that suggests it’s something other than a lack of fear?

5. What is it about that sentence that you think is in line with someone who knows they are guilty of the most heinous crimes? If she was worried and showing it it would be “I am worried about dr asking” etc

“how could she not worry“ because in her mind she hasn’t done anything wrong. As far as I know a guilty person and innocent person in police interviews act very differently from each other, the innocent act more confident and without fear whereas the guilty will act in a way that is noticeably different. You can use your imagination to figure out how. Bit like “it’s a bit of a worry if it’s going that far” which is an universe sized understatement if she’s guilty. Seemingly no fear about the internal investigation but a bit worried about it being external suggesting she didn’t think there would be anything to find.

im not saying anything about certain points in time I’m drawing this from looking at her across the entire year and after.

im sure this is getting ahead, I don’t think we have heard the police interview when they asked her about the notes. I won’t be surprised if it’s more nothing to fear again.

i will say at this point I’m not going to be surprised if allot of stuff comes out after the trial and then all will be made clear.

 

[Dotta]

im not sure your following my logic. Let me explain.

”why wasn’t she doing so”. I’m not defending it nor trying to say it’s irrelevant, only what in my mind is suggested by the presence of “a large amount of documents“. it’s not just handover sheets either I am actually expecting a large range of documents. Makes it worse if anything. I am trying to consider what is likely to be the reason for it without the lens of “right and wrong“, my suggestion is that it is what someone considered to be a workaholic would do. Really someone who lives and breathes their job and doesn’t leave work at work. this if true isnt Necessarily a positive especially contextually. It’s not the only reason I agree but looking at other aspects of the case I think it’s the only likely one.

“shredding or burning it” well that’s exactly what I think a person who is guilty and remembered keeping them would do, if she is guilty and remembers them it suggests high significance in her mind but no just left about the house Willy nilly. fire and forget kind of thing suggesting insignificance in her mind imo. I’m not given any reason to think that she is that cognitively impaired that if guilty she would knowingly keep them around for the inevitable and highly predictable house search by police, two years after events quite clearly indicating that a police investigation is inevitable if guilty. I think she would be fearful of keeping those records if she was guilty and knew about them, the fear would be the only motivation for disposing of any of them. Imo you can’t say they are significant simply by them Being found as its against the rules of self preservation without which you will most likely be put in an institution with or without your consent. To me it’s almost entirely contradictory to say they are significant to her yet were found by police when there is two years of opportunity to do as a guilty person would and dispose of evidence.

no her obliviousness imo is a continuous theme for her. No fear at all about the things she would be fearful of if she knew she was guilty. I’m not just talking about the suspension from clinical duties. Obviously she would be aware of impending doom if guilty after that meeting and presumably would do as a guilty person often does and dispose of the evidence. I think they probably held importance to her hence lots of them but not significance. Otherwise you would see a certain level of care involved like organisation of them or placement not strewn around the place. Imo you can’t marry that they were significant if guilty and found. Bit more like “nothing to fear officer, search my property at your leisure“. not “dispose of the evidence Before they get here”.

1. do you have anything that suggests the way they were found was a strategy?

2. I don’t believe there is anything to suggest these large amount of documents would hold such value to a guilty person that they would keep them “at all costs” including the ability to keep them if significant for longer as it’s against the rules of self preservation

3. I said “normal for her” not “it’s the done thing generally“.
it’s still the lots of them that makes me think it. Not normal for everyone but normal for her.

4. the reason I think it’s a lack of fear is because if she was guilty she would know what the police finding them could potentially do instead more “nothing to fear officer, carry on”
anything that suggests it’s something other than a lack of fear?

5. What is it about that sentence that you think is in line with someone who knows they are guilty of the most heinous crimes? If she was worried and showing it it would be “I am worried about dr asking” etc

“how could she not worry“ because in her mind she hasn’t done anything wrong. As far as I know a guilty person and innocent person in police interviews act very differently from each other, the innocent act more confident and without fear whereas the guilty will act in a way that is noticeably different. You can use your imagination to figure out how. Bit like “it’s a bit of a worry if it’s going that far” which is an universe sized understatement if she’s guilty. Seemingly no fear about the internal investigation but a bit worried about it being external suggesting she didn’t think there would be anything to find.

im not saying anything about certain points in time I’m drawing this from looking at her across the entire year and after.

im sure this is getting ahead, I don’t think we have heard the police interview when they asked her about the notes. I won’t be surprised if it’s more nothing to fear again.

i will say at this point I’m not going to be surprised if allot of stuff comes out after the trial and then all will be made clear.

How would we know that the documents were "strewn around the house"?

I don't recall reading it.

IMO, If guilty, she might have felt she left no traces.
Didn't she text (ironically) about minimal evidence, if any?

Wasn't she supported by her fan - Dr A, who assured her she had nothing to worry about?

I wonder if he recommended her as a baby sitter to his friends?

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

How would we know that the documents were "strewn around the house"?

I don't recall reading it.

IMO, If guilty, she might have felt she left no traces.
Didn't she text (ironically) about minimal evidence, if any?

Wasn't she supported by her fan - Dr A, who assured her she had nothing to worry about?

I wonder if he recommended her as a baby sitter to his friends?

JMO

It’s the lack of anything indicative offered by the prosecution. Obviously not organised otherwise they would have said. But the gas records and handover sheet were found in a bag under the bed which means those documents were found by themselves. To me it’s almost entirely contradictory to say they were significant to her and found if guilty. Of all incriminating things those notes would be highest level and if significant would be disposed of.

yeh but think Dotta if she knows she’s guilty why on earth would anything anyone said to her make the slightest bit of difference? It simply wouldn’t. She would be 100% aware of impending doom.it simply would not change her motivation to get rid of the evidence.

 

[Dotta]

It’s the lack of anything indicative offered by the prosecution. Obviously not organised otherwise they would have said. But the gas records and handover sheet were found in a bag under the bed which means those documents were found by themselves. To me it’s almost entirely contradictory to say they were significant to her and found if guilty. Of all incriminating things those notes would be highest level and if significant would be disposed of.

yeh but think Dotta if she knows she’s guilty why on earth would anything anyone said to her make the slightest bit of difference? It simply wouldn’t. She would be 100% aware of impending doom.it simply would not change her motivation to get rid of the evidence.

Tell you what
And it is ONLY MY OPINION
If guilty

She didn't need these documents to "refresh her memory" about the events.

Not at all

All SK I ever read about remembered perfectly their victims even after decades.

These documents, if she is guilty, were her trophies.
The links to the Babies.

That is why she kept them at her home.

That is how I see it.

If guilty, of course.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Tell you what
And it is ONLY MY OPINION
If guilty

She didn't need these documents to "refresh her memory" about the events.

Not at all

All SK I ever read about remembered perfectly their victims even after decades.

These documents, if she is guilty, were her trophies.
The links to the Babies.

That is why she kept them at her home.

That is how I see it.

If guilty, of course.

JMO

Then why not get rid of it? <modsnip>

 

[WaxLyrical]

Do we know when they found these documents? If it was some time after her first arrest, you’d think she would have got rid of them if they were trophies and she knew she was under suspicion. JMO

 

[Dotta]

Then why not get rid of it? <modsnip>

Who gets rid of their treasures?

Good night

 

[Sweeper2000]

Do we know when they found these documents? If it was some time after her first arrest, you’d think she would have got rid of them if they were trophies and she knew she was under suspicion. JMO

Two years after the suspension from clinical duties and a year after her first arrest.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Who gets rid of their treasures?

Good night

I cood nah rid myself of that dear lassie called Dotta, aye. Good night to you

 

[marynnu]

im not sure your following my logic. Let me explain.

”why wasn’t she doing so”. I’m not defending it nor trying to say it’s irrelevant, only what in my mind is suggested by the presence of “a large amount of documents“. it’s not just handover sheets either I am actually expecting a large range of documents. Makes it worse if anything. I am trying to consider what is likely to be the reason for it without the lens of “right and wrong“, my suggestion is that it is what someone considered to be a workaholic would do. Really someone who lives and breathes their job and doesn’t leave work at work. this if true isnt Necessarily a positive especially contextually. It’s not the only reason I agree but looking at other aspects of the case I think it’s the only likely one.

“shredding or burning it” well that’s exactly what I think a person who is guilty and remembered keeping them would do, if she is guilty and remembers them it suggests high significance in her mind but no just left about the house Willy nilly. fire and forget kind of thing suggesting insignificance in her mind imo. I’m not given any reason to think that she is that cognitively impaired that if guilty she would knowingly keep them around for the inevitable and highly predictable house search by police, two years after events quite clearly indicating that a police investigation is inevitable if guilty. I think she would be fearful of keeping those records if she was guilty and knew about them, the fear would be the only motivation for disposing of any of them. Imo you can’t say they are significant simply by them Being found as its against the rules of self preservation without which you will most likely be put in an institution with or without your consent. To me it’s almost entirely contradictory to say they are significant to her yet were found by police when there is two years of opportunity to do as a guilty person would and dispose of evidence.

no her obliviousness imo is a continuous theme for her. No fear at all about the things she would be fearful of if she knew she was guilty. I’m not just talking about the suspension from clinical duties. Obviously she would be aware of impending doom if guilty after that meeting and presumably would do as a guilty person often does and dispose of the evidence. I think they probably held importance to her hence lots of them but not significance. Otherwise you would see a certain level of care involved like organisation of them or placement not strewn around the place. Imo you can’t marry that they were significant if guilty and found. Bit more like “nothing to fear officer, search my property at your leisure“. not “dispose of the evidence Before they get here”.

1. do you have anything that suggests the way they were found was a strategy?

2. I don’t believe there is anything to suggest these large amount of documents would hold such value to a guilty person that they would keep them “at all costs” including the ability to keep them if significant for longer as it’s against the rules of self preservation

3. I said “normal for her” not “it’s the done thing generally“.
it’s still the lots of them that makes me think it. Not normal for everyone but normal for her. In other words highly irregular but not unexpected.

4. the reason I think it’s a lack of fear is because if she was guilty she would know what the police finding them could potentially do instead more “nothing to fear officer, carry on”
anything that suggests it’s something other than a lack of fear?

5. What is it about that sentence that you think is in line with someone who knows they are guilty of the most heinous crimes? If she was worried and showing it it would be “I am worried about dr asking” etc

“how could she not worry“ because in her mind she hasn’t done anything wrong. As far as I know a guilty person and innocent person in police interviews act very differently from each other, the innocent act more confident and without fear whereas the guilty will act in a way that is noticeably different. You can use your imagination to figure out how. Bit like “it’s a bit of a worry if it’s going that far” which is an universe sized understatement if she’s guilty. Seemingly no fear about the internal investigation but a bit worried about it being external suggesting she didn’t think there would be anything to find.

im not saying anything about certain points in time I’m drawing this from looking at her across the entire year and after.

im sure this is getting ahead, I don’t think we have heard the police interview when they asked her about the notes. I won’t be surprised if it’s more nothing to fear again.

i will say at this point I’m not going to be surprised if allot of stuff comes out after the trial and then all will be made clear.

So, are you saying she would get rid of the documents if guilty but might not if innocent? I don't follow that. Either way you'd know it looks a bit strange and you're not supposed to have this stuff at home. I would have expected her to get rid so as not to get in trouble for that, at least. Why she didn't makes no sense to me, even if they're part of her personal investigation into the previous year's events.

Do you mind if I ask if you're English? Only because here "it’s a bit of a worry if it’s going that far” means "Bloody hell, this is seriously bad"! . All IMO.