UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #17

[WaxLyrical]

yes.

Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, says a total of 257 handover sheets were recovered in the police search. Of those, 21 related to babies in the indictment.
Four of them were in the 'Ibiza bag' and 17 were in the Morrisons bag.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, April 17

Ah, excuse me I've just noticed this report

Also in the Morrisons bag were a number of nursing handover neonatal unit notes - 31 in total.
Most of the notes refer to babies which did not feature in the indictment, and included on 17 of the notes there are multiple references to 13 of the 17 babies in the indictment period.

and included on 17 of the notes there are multiple references to 13 of the 17 babies in the indictment period

It would be really enlightening to know more about this, which babies are being mentioned and when, and did any other collapses happen on those days. Maybe one day we’ll find out.

 

[Sundial]

Which suggests that they may have been separated by her as part of her trying to identify what was being investigated?

Which whether innocent or guilty; she still should not have had them/been carrying out her own investigation if that’s what she was actually doing.

Even if she is actually innocent; I would be surprised if there aren’t consequences from this alone tbh.

JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

Mostly in a black bag in he garage.


im vepry curious to find out why she kep these handover sheets. Im thinking she probably did take every one home as they probably predate the charges.

im also wondering if dr choc informed her of how long people had thought she was suspect for. That gives her a date range.
im wondering if the notes in her diary we’re actually written well after the date itself. Different coloured pen suggests so maybe. When she was trying to recall the memories.

I think it's quite likely she kept them after each shift, on balance.

From the seemingly obsessional nature of her notes I'd have no problem believing she has some strange compulsive or hoarding nature to her. Maybe this is what drove her, as a young single woman, to buy a house which is clearly way too big for her and a couple of cats?

All MOO, obvs.

 

[Tortoise]

Doc Choc?

Also, if she's the type of person who remembers this stuff or keeps her own records, which seems highly likely, she could probably identify which cases may be being looked into.

The fact that it appears to be ONLY babies directly related to the charges tends to suggest that this is what she's done and that they weren't kept separate at the time of the incidents hence, doesn't suggest they were trophies.

I don't think she'd have been told and I don't think the hospital would have been told either, while the police investigation was ongoing.

They would have to guard the integrity of their investigation, and they certainly wouldn't want their prime suspect to be put on notice before her arrest, giving her time to prep her answers and potentially hide or alter evidence and delete electronic evidence, and especially since they would have been aware of her having friends on the unit, one of them in a senior position.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Which whether innocent or guilty; she still should not have had them/been carrying out her own investigation if that’s what she was actually doing.

Even if she is actually innocent; I would be surprised if there aren’t consequences from this alone tbh.

JMO

I agree entirely. However, if I were putting myself in the same position with such potentially dire consequences, I don't think that being caught with a few papers I shouldn't have would stop me printing them.

 

[Tortoise]

I think the prosecution highlighted certain handover sheets being found in the bags as being more incriminating because they related to babies who didn't die.

JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don't think she'd have been told and I don't think the hospital would have been told either, while the police investigation was ongoing.

They would have to guard the integrity of their investigation, and they certainly wouldn't want their prime suspect to be put on notice before her arrest, giving her time to prep her answers and potentially hide or alter evidence and delete electronic evidence, and especially since they would have been aware of her having friends on the unit, one of them in a senior position.

I get that but what if this was purely related to the grievance she initiated? She must have known that being placed on clerical could only be a result of suspected performance failings so she'd likely try to look at what these suspicions might be, surely?

She'd also surely be privy to gossip which might enable her to piece things together?

All MOO.

 

[Sundial]

I agree entirely. However, if I were putting myself in the same position with such potentially dire consequences, I don't think that being caught with a few papers I shouldn't have would stop me printing them.

It was much more than a few papers tbf.

ETA: medical confidential papers no less.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think the prosecution highlighted certain handover sheets being found in the bags as being more incriminating because they related to babies who didn't die.

JMO

Again, if she's preparing a grievance case then maybe she'd try to identify anything which may possibly be a judgement of her performance?

 

[Tortoise]

I get that but what if this was purely related to the grievance she initiated? She must have known that being placed on clerical could only be a result of suspected performance failings so she'd likely try to look at what these suspicions might be, surely?

She'd also surely be privy to gossip which might enable her to piece things together?

All MOO.

I don't think there would be gossip, I don't think other staff would know.



Mon Aug 8th

LL to nurse colleague: Tony phoned. He's going to speak to Karen and insist on the review being no later than 1st week of Sept but said he definitely wouldn't advise pushing to get back to unit until it's taken place. Asked about social things and he said it's up to me but would advise not speaking with anyone in case any of them are involved with the review process. Thinks I should keep head down and ride it out and can take further once over. Feel a bit like Im being shoved in a corner and forgotten about by the trust. It's my life and career. He's not been given any information about the evidence he asked for which is good. He's not sure what the external people are going to look at in relation to me but we are in the process now so have to ride it out

Colleague: Ok well just have to take his advice then suppose

LL: Still can't believe this has happened. It's making me feel like I should hide away by saying not speak to anyone and going on for months etc - I haven't done anything wrong.

Colleague: Me neither! I know it's all so ridiculous.

LL: I can't see where it will all end

Colleague: I'm sure this time after xmas it'll all b a distant memory.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It was much more than a few papers tbf.

Okay, perhaps bad choice of words but even hundreds it's a pretty minor consideration compared to the consequences of not defending yourself. Let's face it, hospitals - along with many public institutions - hardly have a stellar reputation for protection of their staff when their reputation or a massive legal suit might result.

If it were me I'd be snaffling all the info I could to defend myself rather than relying on the "honesty" of my employer.

MOO!

 

[Sundial]

Again, if she's preparing a grievance case then maybe she'd try to identify anything which may possibly be a judgement of her performance?

In all honesty; if she was printing them off, let’s say, and is innocent; this action alone is literally like putting a noose round your neck.
JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don't think there would be gossip, I don't think other staff would know.



Mon Aug 8th

LL to nurse colleague: Tony phoned. He's going to speak to Karen and insist on the review being no later than 1st week of Sept but said he definitely wouldn't advise pushing to get back to unit until it's taken place. Asked about social things and he said it's up to me but would advise not speaking with anyone in case any of them are involved with the review process. Thinks I should keep head down and ride it out and can take further once over. Feel a bit like Im being shoved in a corner and forgotten about by the trust. It's my life and career. He's not been given any information about the evidence he asked for which is good. He's not sure what the external people are going to look at in relation to me but we are in the process now so have to ride it out

Colleague: Ok well just have to take his advice then suppose

LL: Still can't believe this has happened. It's making me feel like I should hide away by saying not speak to anyone and going on for months etc - I haven't done anything wrong.

Colleague: Me neither! I know it's all so ridiculous.

LL: I can't see where it will all end

Colleague: I'm sure this time after xmas it'll all b a distant memory.

Fair points but that conversation was at the time everything kicked off, I believe? She still had months to gather evidence while she was on clerical and it wasn't until years after that she was irst arrested. We don't know what info she'd been made aware of during that period.

 

[Marantz4250b]

In all honesty; if she was printing them off, let’s say, and is innocent; this action alone is literally like putting a noose round your neck.
JMO

I beg to differ. You can't determine that someone is guilty because they made some stupid decisions in trying to defend themselves.

 

[Sundial]

Okay, perhaps bad choice of words but even hundreds it's a pretty minor consideration compared to the consequences of not defending yourself. Let's face it, hospitals - along with many public institutions - hardly have a stellar reputation for protection of their staff when their reputation or a massive legal suit might result.

If it were me I'd be snaffling all the info I could to defend myself rather than relying on the "honesty" of my employer.

MOO!

At the expense of having dozens of patients confidential medical information in your home?
If someone accuses you of something (even if innocent), and your a healthcare professional; you then go and print (if that’s what she did) dozens of these sheets and stash them in various places around your home? How does that actually help the situation, if anything it is the opposite and makes the situation even worse than it was before.

Moo

 

[Tortoise]

Fair points but that conversation was at the time everything kicked off, I believe? She still had months to gather evidence while she was on clerical and it wasn't until years after that she was irst arrested. We don't know what info she'd been made aware of during that period.

Her barrister has already said it was a case of her being someone who takes her notes home, not gathering information because she was under investigation.

 

[Legal]

There is so much to think about with all the babies and handover sheets and notes, I decided to try and simplify everything by just looking at the cases of E and F. I chose these because I think it has been agreed that F was deliberately poisoned. There was no medical explanation for the insulin and peptide levels, aside from a deliberate administration of insulin, so the attempted murder charge is not in question.

Ergo - who could have poisoned him?

IF GUILTY AND IMO FOR ALL THE BELOW POINTS

Records show LL and a designated nurse co-signed for the TPN bag and the prescription sheet. Her signature is on them. Therefore, it could be her, the nurse or a very limited number of others. These are the suspects.

Other Facts
-On 2nd August LL messaged a colleague that it was too quiet in the ward.
-On 3/4th August, the mother of E and F caught LL attacking E, who was bleeding at the mouth and in distress. LL said everything was in hand.
- On3/4th August, LL lied in her notes about the mother's visit, lied about instructions from the SHO and omitted to mention the bleeding.
- Early 4th August, E died.
- The next day someone attempted to poison F with insulin (see above).
-Two days later LL searched for the mother on Facebook
- She did this again on many occasions including Christmas day

So, evidence from just the cases of these 2 babies, show that LL is proven to have lied on medical records, was observed in the presence of an injured baby, and was one of a limited number of suspects who could have poisoned F. This already looks suspicious.

If we then add all the other incidents/ coincidences from the other cases, where she was in a baby's presence just before it collapsed, stashed confidential records at her house, was too involved in the babies well-being outside of work, contemporaneously took the blood gas record and paper towel, behaved strangely in front of parents, didn't take time off etc etc, it is hard to believe someone else was the perpetrator. (IMO)

 

[Sundial]

I beg to differ. You can't determine that someone is guilty because they made some stupid decisions in trying to defend themselves.

I didn’t determine she was guilty; I said this action alone is like putting a noose round your neck.
They are confidential medical sheets with patients names on them scattered around her house. In very large numbers no less. It is an action that can be seen as jumping from the frying pan into the fire. She would have known that you don’t just have hundreds of these documents littered around your house.

Whether she printed and took them or was hoarding them; it is damming even if she is innocent.
JMO

 

[DinerMite]

It's not an evidence gather imo

There is no way she sat there at her works PC and printed off 250 odd sheets/reports/notes to then take home - she would have been seen and questioned at the very least. These were clearly items she took home as and when.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Mostly in a black bag in he garage.


im vepry curious to find out why she kep these handover sheets. Im thinking she probably did take every one home as they probably predate the charges.

im also wondering if dr choc informed her of how long people had thought she was suspect for. That gives her a date range.
im wondering if the notes in her diary we’re actually written well after the date itself. Different coloured pen suggests so maybe. When she was trying to recall the memories.

No the black bin bag was found on her second arrest. So she'd obviously hidden the notes found at her parents' house sufficiently well before her first arrest for them not to be found the first time they searched.

Letby was re-arrested at her parents’ home on June 10, 2019 and November 11, 2020, the court heard.

A search of the garage at the Westbourne Road property on June 10 revealed another handwritten note found in a black bin bag.

Phrases on that note included “killing me softly”, “broken hearted” and “no-one will ever know what happened or why”.

Six pages of medical notes of children unrelated to the trial were found at her parents’ home on the same date.

What police saw inside Lucy Letby's Chester home at time of 2018 arrest