UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[WaxLyrical]

There is something a bit weird in all this and I can’t help but wonder why more senior management that have been mentioned haven’t been (yet) asked to attend/give evidence. Will they be part of the defences turn in due course I wonder. If not I feel this would be rather odd. Will dr choc be part of further defence teams points too?
It will be interesting to hear more around their POV in due course.

Whats also really strange to me as they haven’t addressed the whole handover sheet thing as much as I thought they might, will they revisit this, will she stand?
Absolute nightmare.

Moo

Perhaps some of these people may face charges of their own if it turns out a serial killer was able to go about killing in plain sight for a year, including clear episodes of poisoning. There’s been some serious failures of checks and controls at this hospital, especially when the death rate increased so substantially and people were raising concerns internally throughout. The police are still recruiting? JMO.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I got from somewhere that the most likely time would be February as that's when registrars rotate.

There’s only one blurred out name on that chart that shows 7 presences, and they span the entire year, not just from feb onwards.

Although that might not be the whole chart.

 

[marynnu]

There is something a bit weird in all this and I can’t help but wonder why more senior management that have been mentioned haven’t been (yet) asked to attend/give evidence. Will they be part of the defences turn in due course I wonder. If not I feel this would be rather odd. Will dr choc be part of further defence teams points too?
It will be interesting to hear more around their POV in due course.

Whats also really strange to me as they haven’t addressed the whole handover sheet thing as much as I thought they might, will they revisit this, will she stand?
Absolute nightmare.

Moo

Maybe because they're not directly involved with the incidents? The questions over their actions & responsibilities would be to do with how they responded to concerns & the aftermath, I would say.

 

[marynnu]

There’s only one blurred out name on that chart that shows 7 presences, and they span the entire year, not just from feb onwards.

Although that might not be the whole chart.

Are doctors on it at all though?

 

[WaxLyrical]

Are doctors on it at all though?

I believe so, it says staff on the unit

 

[marynnu]

I believe so, it says staff on the unit

I only ask because at the top it says "nurses present" and I can't see any doctors' names.

 

[esther43]

Are doctors on it at all though?

I think it's just nursing staff isn't it?

 

[WaxLyrical]

I only ask because at the top it says "nurses present" and I can't see any doctors' names.

Ah yes, you’re quite right. I’ll edit my original comment. Dan’s tweet said “staff on the neonatal unit”, I didn’t spot on the chart it was just nurses.

Strange that it would just be nursing staff and not all staff..

 

[Sweeper2000]

going through the evidence they made a big. Thing of the adrenaline being used so often. I would like to learn exactly how that played a role in the babies resus efforts but specifically to do with AE. Even if it is speculative with The dearth of research on AE. One might think if that was doable it would bolster the Prosecutions case. If it needs bolstering at this point in time.

 

[DianaWW]

I'm pretty sure I read yesterday that they did look at the Drs presence as well, and that Dr Gibbs was the person present most after LL. He was present for 10 events.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I think this is exactly what the defence case will depend on IMO. And in return if I were on the jury I'd be asking, ok explain why if its systemic that only LL was there for every case? And the next highest present was there less than half, more like about a third of the cases? Explain why it always stopped as soon as she was off the floor? These are the glaring questions that they don't seem to be able to answer, so I'm interested in how they'll account for that or even try.

So for me (and I know we haven’t even had the defence present its case yet) there were some charges where I did not think that the prosecution demonstrated with sufficient certainty that a murder or attempted murder had even taken place (purely on the medical evidence).

For others, I thought the medical evidence was persuasive (ie the insulin cases). For the others, I would have to go back and go through medical the evidence again to decide what I think.

But then, having discounted certain charges on the basis that murder or a.m. isn’t proved on the medical evidence, I would then look at the remaining charges where I did think a murder or a.m. had taken place on the medical evidence, and then consider whether LL should be found guilty or not. In that respect, I would love to see this chart the prosecution has showing who was on shift for each of the charges. What are the statistics like then? Is it only LL who was on shift for all of those charges? If so, what then is the closest number of charges where another person was also on duty?

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

So if Dr Choc was present for 7, then he must’ve been at the hospital for longer than we thought?

Edit: I realise now the chart only lists nurses.

Oh really, it’s only nurses on the chart? I hadn’t twigged that. Where did you see that?

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

There’s only one blurred out name on that chart that shows 7 presences, and they span the entire year, not just from feb onwards.

Although that might not be the whole chart.

Can you provide a link to the chart please? I would love to see it

 

[ColourPurple]

Ah yes, you’re quite right. I’ll edit my original comment. Dan’s tweet said “staff on the neonatal unit”, I didn’t spot on the chart it was just nurses.

Strange that it would just be nursing staff and not all staff..

In the vast majority of cases the doctors were only present after the collapses, to perform resus in response to the alarm being raised, so can't have caused the initila collapses, so I can see why they're listed separately.

However I'd like to see the doctors' chart to see whether there was any similar pattern in the earlier cases, to the pattern of Doc Choc being present in the later cases. If gulty, and if getting doc choc's attention and time was part of the motivation, and if she allegedly orchestrated collapses when she knew he would be on duty and likely to attend resus... then it would be interesting to see if she had allegedly targeted any other doctor in the same way in the earlier cases, before he was around.

If guilty, All JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

Can you provide a link to the chart please? I would love to see it

It’s the one Dan tweeted that was posted a bit earlier, see post #748

 

[ColourPurple]

Can you provide a link to the chart please? I would love to see it

Its the one in earlier posts today:

twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1651879343503572993?s=20

 

[WaxLyrical]

In the vast majority of cases the doctors were only present after the collapses, to perform resus in response to the alarm being raised, so can't have caused the initila collapses, so I can see why they're listed separately.

However I'd like to see the doctors' chart to see whether there was any similar pattern in the earlier cases, to the pattern of Doc Choc being present in the later cases. If gulty, and if getting doc choc's attention and time was part of the motivation, and if she allegedly orchestrated collapses when she knew he would be on duty and likely to attend resus... then it would be interesting to see if she had allegedly targeted any other doctor in the same way in the earlier cases, before he was around.

If guilty, All JMO

I think it would be more helpful to just have one chart that lists everyone working on the unit, doctors etc included. Including only a subsection of staff makes it looks like it’s cherry picking, when they probably don’t need to. Like you said, it might also show other patterns. JMO.

 

[marynnu]

Oh really, it’s only nurses on the chart? I hadn’t twigged that. Where did you see that?

It's on the heading.

 

[Sundial]

I'm frustrated that the prosecution did not call the medical director or CEO.

Yes, I feel this frustration too. Surely if they were not “concerned” or whatever point management and CEO had, it strengthens the defences case? Perhaps they may be called in due course, who knows how this will play out.
JMO

 

[Sundial]

Perhaps some of these people may face charges of their own if it turns out a serial killer was able to go about killing in plain sight for a year, including clear episodes of poisoning. There’s been some serious failures of checks and controls at this hospital, especially when the death rate increased so substantially and people were raising concerns internally throughout. The police are still recruiting? JMO.

Very true and a valid, interesting point.