UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[ColourPurple]

The degree of impact on her would be relative to her most recent exposure to any death On the NNU. If it came out of nowhere and sucker punched her woefully unprepared psych I would expect it to be a reoccurring memory Ie impactful.

everybody who is worth A damn loves babies imo and in my personal preference.

But somebody who allegedly attacked and killed babies may not!

If guilty!

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Not to mention the nature of the crimes being alledged.

How could anyone be put through that and not become filled with resentment?

Resentment is the one thing I would expect to see overflowing, all over the place, from someone who has been falsely accused and someone who writes for release and fills up every last bit of space on the page, because she can't talk to anyone.

Yes indeed!! Where is it? In one word, at the bottom of one note - "bastards"?

I want to hear the prosecution asking her again and again where her legitimate anger was, her fury, her outrage, as they go through all her ramblings and outpourings. It's not there.

She redid her competencies, discovered she never made mistakes, but no anger. Why?

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’ve just had a thought. It took six months for the prosecution to make their case. That’s goin through all the evidence and the rest and now we are to hear the defences case and that’s going through each case individually. I reckons this will be “war and peace 2, the Extended version”.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

Resentment is the one thing I would expect to see overflowing, all over the place, from someone who has been falsely accused and someone who writes for release and fills up every last bit of space on the page, because she can't talk to anyone.

Yes indeed!! Where is it? In one word, at the bottom of one note - "bastards"?

I want to hear the prosecution asking her again and again where her legitimate anger was, her fury, her outrage, as they go through all her ramblings and outpourings. It's not there.

She redid her competencies, discovered she never made mistakes, but no anger. Why?

By that measure it appears Ms Letby can't win, can she?
Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't..

Shows intense anger - "Definitely capable of murder", they'll say.
Only uses the one mild swear word - "Exactly what a person guilty of murder would do, no anger, why?", they'll ask.

<modsnip>

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Resentment is the one thing I would expect to see overflowing, all over the place, from someone who has been falsely accused and someone who writes for release and fills up every last bit of space on the page, because she can't talk to anyone.

Yes indeed!! Where is it? In one word, at the bottom of one note - "bastards"?

I want to hear the prosecution asking her again and again where her legitimate anger was, her fury, her outrage, as they go through all her ramblings and outpourings. It's not there.

She redid her competencies, discovered she never made mistakes, but no anger. Why?

JMO

Probably present in her use of the word “hate” in the “not good enough“ note as in ”I hate this situation“. remember it was in big bold and underlined writing. She is also tame and doesn’t use vulgar Language so perhaps the word “bastards” is actually a thing of relative proportion. I have read that insults are a form of dehumanising someone example “you rat, vermin, scum” etc. She doesn’t use that Langusage really.

truth be told I don’t really expect anger from conscientious individuals, they would sooner think “they probably have a reason for this so I will just go with the flow and truth will prevail“. She was also “fuming” after the email was sent around the unit.

she also filed a grievance as a result of being suspended from clinical duties and once her competencies were given the all clear, I think an expression of anger might come with that grievance. As in “I’m filing a grievance as I have been suspended without reason and that I find upsetting“.

 

[Tortoise]

By that measure it appears Ms Letby can't win, can she?
Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't..

Shows intense anger - "Definitely capable of murder", they'll say.
Only uses the one mild swear word - "Exactly what a person guilty of murder would do, no anger, why?", they'll ask.

<modsnip>

JMO

Why should she hide it in her private writings? You don't agree it signifies she wasn't feeling it?

Who is they, and how does expressing legitimate anger define a person as capable of murder?

 

[mummyshark]

A lot of LL’s answers seem to be very short and don’t give any detail. There’s a lot of her doing things ‘for her own reflection’ or ‘something significant must have happened’ or ‘I do this all the time’ ‘I was upset’ but then there’s no extra detail.

I was going to say exactly this. Her stock answers seem to be:

- it was for my own reflection
- it's something I've always done
- they were on my mind

They're all such vague answers and don't really explain anything. They're all very literal. Obviously you wouldn't search for someone on Facebook who wasn't on your mind!

It reminds me of the sort of response I get from my children when they know they've done something wrong:

"How did your sister get hurt?" "We were playing"
"What are you eating?" "Food"

I wouldn't accept such literal and evasive answers from them and they're only 6 and 9!

 

[Tortoise]

Probably present in her use of the word “hate” in the “not good enough“ note as in ”I hate this situation“. remember it was in big bold and underlined writing. She is also tame and doesn’t use vulgar Language so perhaps the word “bastards” is actually a thing of relative proportion. I have read that insults are a form of dehumanising someone example “you rat, vermin, scum” etc. She doesn’t use that Langusage really.

truth be told I don’t really expect anger from conscientious individuals, they would sooner think “they probably have a reason for this so I will just go with the flow and truth will prevail“. She was also “fuming” after the email was sent around the unit.

11:00am

Re: 'HATE' and 'Hate myself for what this has' - "At the time, I did hate myself".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

I was going to say exactly this. Her stock answers seem to be:

- it was for my own reflection
- it's something I've always done
- they were on my mind

They're all such vague answers and don't really explain anything. They're all very literal. Obviously you wouldn't search for someone on Facebook who wasn't on your mind!

It reminds me of the sort of response I get from my children when they know they've done something wrong:

"How did your sister get hurt?" "We were playing"
"What are you eating?" "Food"

I wouldn't accept such literal and evasive answers from them and they're only 6 and 9!

Today's questioning was basically just the defence letting her put her (updated) version of events forward, now she's had time to hear what everybody else has said in court. The prosecution won't settle for those kind of non-answers.

 

[Sweeper2000]

11:00am

Re: 'HATE' and 'Hate myself for what this has' - "At the time, I did hate myself".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Ahhhh so she is trusting the higher ups like a conscientious person and wasn’t angry at this point but did get there with the grievance filed? Once she realised there wasn’t anything she could have done differently that’s when she got angry and filed the grievance.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

The degree of impact on her would be relative to her most recent exposure to any death On the NNU. If it came out of nowhere and sucker punched her woefully unprepared psych I would expect it to be a reoccurring memory Ie impactful.

everybody who is worth A damn loves babies imo and in my personal preference.

I don’t like babies! Sorry but I’m not maternal at all, babies and children are not for me. Obviously I would never want anything bad to happen to a baby, they’re completely innocent and rely entirely on us to protect and look after them. Just not a fan of them, sorry!

 

[Anxala]

Well that was a really interesting day in court. Grateful thanks, as ever, to all who provided the transcripts and did the heavy lifting here.

I'm really glad LL took the stand. If nothing else, she's no longer the remote enigma she's been since this trial began. For me, that's a real positive in that I now finally feel I can 'see' her and start to begin to understand how she 'works'.

It feels like the trial has properly begun.

I'm looking forward to what happens next.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

Important to bear in mind that we are not hearing of any deaths or close calls/major complications that Ms Letby is not accused of, assuming of course there were any - which seems highly likely. We don't know which of the members of staff were present for those instances, assuming they happened, so have no way of forming a complete picture.

All the jury can do is base their beliefs upon the evidence they are being presented.

JMO

The other babies that died who weren’t in LL’s care died of established causes. The babies who died in LL’s care died of sudden unnatural causes, some of which were due to air being deliberately injected into their blood system; milk pumped into their tiny stomachs causing their hearts to stop; and having insulin injected into their systems.

Big difference.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don’t like babies! Sorry but I’m not maternal at all, babies and children are not for me. Obviously I would never want anything bad to happen to a baby, they’re completely innocent and rely entirely on us to protect and look after them. Just not a fan of them, sorry!

Don’t be sorry especially when these things change over time. You never know when or if the bells will start chiming. Might not be something you can help.

that might have sounded like harsh words from me but is entirely personal preference, I’m not the kind to exclude or judge anyone on what is entirely my personal preference.

 

[ConcernedThirdParty]

I can appreciate your input, although I have been on the thread for a while and that is not my only comment re my job/experience.

Regarding my point;

"...seniors have also made this clear; you can be a good nurse with empathy and compassion, you get to the know the families. However, this is not healthy..." - I'm a little unclear what you'r saying here? Are you saying seniors say you *can* do this but *you* think it's unhealthy, or do you need to rephrase?

I’m sorry if you felt this wasn’t clear, I’ll rephrase it;
I’m saying, senior members of staff will make clear you can be a good nurse with empathy and compassion, getting to know the family etc.
BUT when I say however *this* is not healthy; I am referring to that in which we have heard in evidence; the defendants professional conduct.

There is a big difference in being a good nurse and caring for your patient (and building good rapport with their family); and crossing that professional boundary. That is not ok. They teach you this as part of the ethical obligation as a nurse.

First and foremost you are their nurse.
Secondly, even if building rapport and have been given chocolates you are still the nurse. When it crosses outside of this to the point you are investing yourself to someone who is not your patient or you are not actually that involved in their care and don’t actually know the patient that well- but keep going against your senior, won’t step back or take time off to rest from grief or anything else; then it becomes a problem.

If you ask any senior member of nursing staff (or even her colleagues witness testimonies), when you are unable to do this, it then concerning. Hoarding confidential patient information demonstrates that IS a struggle with her job. Confidentiality is the very essence of her working as a nurse. Consider how you might feel if you found out your babies confidential information (whether they had died or not) was found amongst all the other 250 found at her home? Does that fit the norm of a nurse?

It is the basic principles of nursing where if they are not upheld by those within the profession; it becomes a conflict of interest and causes all sorts of messy internal investigations. As we are seeing. This is exactly why.


IMO and in my experience.

What specifically in the defendants professional conduct has clearly crossed that boundary? The sending a card to the family where she couldn't attend the funeral (but is implied others did?) I would not consider crossing a boundary if the team did get to know the family as she described. That seems to have been the "worst" individual example, and is certainly something I've known pass without comment before.

"keep going against your senior" - it can be very hard to remember with the fact we've spent 6 months hearing about events that happened primarily in several minutes to hour long periods over a dozen shifts spread over a year, and that 7 years ago - but I never got the impression that this was a general pattern, and most of her colleagues still seem to acknowledge she was an exemplary nurse.

Rather, it seemed that on a few occasions colleagues told her she should take a break (as anyone in such a job gets told multiple times) and she generally insisted she was fine, and she did appear to get on with the job, so I'm not sure the evidence says otherwise.

I said it could point to "hoarding" rather than "obsession" - but I still think we're talking about 30+ handover sheets that have slowly been accumulating in the bottom of the bag over several months - she eventually takes the time to empty out the bag, shoves the handover sheets to one side to figure out how to properly dispose of later, and without realising, she's accumulated 10 here, 5 there, 40 there, 3 there and when the police search, they total up 257 from years of work, presumably amongst many other irrelevant documents - to her, she accidentally takes home a handover sheet a little less than once a week on average, shoves paperwork into a cupboard every now and then and intends to deal with it on a rainy day that never arrived.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

The searches include the ones previously referred to in court, searching for the parents of babies named in the indictment, plus - on those same days - the Facebook searches for other babies' parents' names, work colleagues, and social and non-work related matters.

As an example, on June 9, 2015, in addition to a search for the mother's name of Child A and Child B, Letby carried out searches for three social contacts, two staffing colleagues - Ashleigh Hudson and David Harkness, and the name of a mother from a child from Liverpool Women's Hospital neonatal unit.

There have been references to her searching two mothers from Liverpool Womens. It woudl've been helpful to know if these were the mothers of the two babies she referred to as the baby who died and then the "dying bbay" she was handed afterwards, or just two random mothers.

Also although Ashleigh Hudson wasnt on shift when Baby A died, David Harkness was the doctor at the resus, so searching him in addition to Baby A and B's mother, could be connected to Baby A's death.

All JMO

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Was David Harkness the doctor she was infatuated with?

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

The other babies that died who weren’t in LL’s care died of established causes.

Is that a fact?

 

[ColourPurple]

Was David Harkness the doctor she was infatuated with?

No, he's anonymous. We don't know his name.

 

[ColourPurple]

I was going to say exactly this. Her stock answers seem to be:

- it was for my own reflection
- it's something I've always done
- they were on my mind

They're all such vague answers and don't really explain anything. They're all very literal. Obviously you wouldn't search for someone on Facebook who wasn't on your mind!

It reminds me of the sort of response I get from my children when they know they've done something wrong:

"How did your sister get hurt?" "We were playing"
"What are you eating?" "Food"

I wouldn't accept such literal and evasive answers from them and they're only 6 and 9!

Why not teach them a new one...

Question :Why did you do that?
Answer:Curiosity!

 

[mummyshark]

Why not teach them a new one...

Question :Why did you do that?
Answer:Curiosity!

Ah yes! They're currently at the "I don't remember" stage. I'm sure they'll progress to the "curiosity" stage at some point.