UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[ColourPurple]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
While the mother and Baby B were still in the hospital too and the mother hadn't left Baby B's side, (till she was told to get some rest, at which point Babay B then collapsed) so LL had plenty of opportunity to see how mother and baby were doing, in person.

After the death of Child A, her mother said she was “frantic, anxious and extremely upset” and did not want Child B “to be out of my sight”.She and her partner were eventually persuaded by nursing staff to get some rest, the court heard.“We returned to the ward and attempted to watch a film and the next thing I know we were getting woke up by a nurse,” she said. “‘You need to come now.’ My heart sank. Not my baby. Not again.”

Mother begged medics: ‘Don’t let my baby die,’ Lucy Letby trial told

Court hears evidence about nurse’s first two alleged victims, twins who suffered sudden collapses

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think Baby A's parents were planning the funeral a few hours after his death. She also had no need of a grieving process as she was not grieving. Funeral arrangements were none if her business, frankly. All JMO.

I really do think it’s unforgiving to suggest that all NNU nurses have zero feelings for babies once they have left the unit Especially when it comes to something as impactful as a death. we have heard evidence that says the entire unit was affected by the deaths in essence their grieving process was dealt with on the unit as they are within their rights to be affected ted by it. Lucy letby s didn’t end at the unit which is my point. I really Do think it is an exceptionally tall order to expect all people to just forget about it and potentially unhealthy.

 

[Sundial]

Yip there is definitely some searches there that are indicative especially so long after the events. My points are to do with what we can expect from the events by themselves and if indeed anything is grossly out of the ordinary.

I can’t suggest she wouldn’t look up patients of reproductive health only that I think the feelings towards the babs will be the reason for the searches. These are feelings that I think are reasonable to expect because indeed “everyone loves babies” whereas one wouldn’t get these feelings for patients in a reproductive health clinic. feelings for babies are different from feelings towards adults.

Who knows, she was even searching the father(s).

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m sorry but this is just not right as the role of a nurse. Without sounding malice, a nurse cannot be conceded about patients funerals or own grieving with so much attachment like this.
You seem to project your point of view as the parent; but the nurse is not there to be overly invested, attached and grieving her patients like this. Even more so when she has not had that much involvement/not key to that family.

It’s all very weird.
Respectfully, patients families may feel one way (absolutely so, it is their right) and I have known of nurses in the teams I’ve worked with attend a funeral (maybe at twice. These are older adults though, but can you imagine if I was then overly invested in someone I had not been the designated nurse or had much involvement in their care, or they were discharged or died a few days or whatever afterwards?

Nurses are NOT supposed to behave this way it’s very concerning. IMO

Yeh I know I just think she was overly involved mentally. Other bits of the evidence suggests it as well. That might be something she can’t help, something that is wrong to expect every time and not something to condemn her for. True though some searches aren’t what I would expect but yes I do believe there will be some form of grieving process. Remember she is 25 at that time I would expect her to still be learning and on her way to the level of professionalism expected from her.

 

[ConcernedThirdParty]

Just to clarify, are you just guessing that the 257 notes spanned several years? Or have you seen this within the evidence. My understanding is they all relate to the period 2015-16.

Tried to find it, thought I'd seen something that hinted at it more directly - but think I'd concluded that myself from just the number, the fact it's never been said that they relate specifically to the 2015-2016 period and the comment "Other paperwork at home would have been policy sheets from different hospitals" - implying (I think) she's considering a time period beyond just working at CoCH. If we presume the ones found in the various bags were more or less all the ones from the time where she was using that bag - then it looks like she takes them home/doesn't immediately dispose of them on average a little less than once a week and given the time periods that these babies would have been under her care, the number that mention them appears about what one would expect.

Sorry I don't really know how to format nicely:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, April 17
2:46pm

A floorplan of Letby's parents' home is shown to the court.
A photo of Lucy Letby's bedroom at the Hereford address is shown to the court.
A photo is shown inside Letby's wardrobe, and Mr Astbury asks about the 'Asda five-sheet strip cut paper shredder' - there was no shredder in the box, but inside were five nursing handover sheets, not related to the indictment.
Handwriting on the box says 'keep'.
...
3:00pm
Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, says a total of 257 handover sheets were recovered in the police search. Of those, 21 related to babies in the indictment.

Four of them were in the 'Ibiza bag' and 17 were in the Morrisons bag.

DC Johnson agrees.

Mr Myers says that meant 236 handover sheets were not in relation to the indictment.


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27
11:36am
In a third overarching interview, Letby is asked about the handover sheets.

She said, 'ideally', the handover sheets should be put in the confidential waste bin at the end of her shifts.

She said that at times, they would come home with her.

She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.

She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room.

She said she "didn't know how to dispose of them" and no-one else had seen them.

She said she would have seen those handover sheets at home "hardly ever".

She said she did not have a shredder and those sheets were at home 'inadvertently'.

Other paperwork at home would have been policy sheets from different hospitals, in relation on how to care when a patient presents with various symptoms.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Do you accept that, if guilty, she may be playing down the significance of the handover notes because they may be significant due to maybe using them to research babies, select potential victims, and/or keep records of their collapses to either re-live or learn from when planning the next alleged attacks? Or do you think the only explanation is that it must be some unrelated hoarding/mental health issue?

JMO, if guilty

I entirely accept that. It's perfectly plausible.

So is my suggestion.

I simply don't know what the answer is here, but giving more weight to one rather than the other isn't the done thing, in my opinion.

This woman is on trial for her life, essentially. It's only just outside of my lifetime where a conviction would see her facing an appointment with Mr Pierrepoint and his length of hemp. As it is, if convicted her life is ruined because she'll never be released - if it isn't already ruined, I might add. I'm questioning everything I can because if she is convicted I'd like to be absolutely sure that she's actually guilty. She's clearly a bit odd but being a bit odd isn't synonymous with being a murderer and, as I think I've mentioned previously, being a bit different from what society considers "normal" is more common than most of us are led to believe.

There are so, so many "unknowns" ad "WTF's" in this case it absolutely makes my head spin, quite frankly.

 

[Sundial]

Yeh I know I just think she was overly involved mentally. Other bits of the evidence suggests it as well. That might be something she can’t help, something that is wrong to expect every time and not something to condemn her for. True though some searches aren’t what I would expect but yes I do believe there will be some form of grieving process. Remember she is 25 at that time I would expect her to still be learning and on her way to the level of professionalism expected from her.

The thing is, her colleagues even said they were concerned about her. Dr B suggested she have some time off. She didn’t want to do that. If she was that upset and it impacted her that badly, why did she not do that? It was heard it effected the whole team and another colleague even said she didn’t want to watch/think about things like that (or words similar) as she got enough of it from work.
It’s really worrying, that a nurse so invested with searches, memory boxes, funerals and handover sheets, claims to have been upset etc, but just wouldn’t step back and appeared to be quite arrogant when her own colleague friend suggested it earlier on between babies A-D. The “I know how I feel people should respect that” comment.

Did she though? Did she actually truly know how she felt? Because the evidence from her colleagues seems to be in conflict with what she has stood on the stand today and said. Understandably they were concerned, I’ve been concerned just reading it!
Her PTSD could easily be an accumulation of all these tiny infant deaths and collapses around that time and refusing to actually step back and properly address with it, progressing then onto being arrested at 6am in her pyjamas.

I honestly cannot get my head round it at all. Just so really, really odd.
JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

Tried to find it, thought I'd seen something that hinted at it more directly - but think I'd concluded that myself from just the number, the fact it's never been said that they relate specifically to the 2015-2016 period and the comment "Other paperwork at home would have been policy sheets from different hospitals" - implying (I think) she's considering a time period beyond just working at CoCH. If we presume the ones found in the various bags were more or less all the ones from the time where she was using that bag - then it looks like she takes them home/doesn't immediately dispose of them on average a little less than once a week and given the time periods that these babies would have been under her care, the number that mention them appears about what one would expect.

Sorry I don't really know how to format nicely:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, April 17
2:46pm

A floorplan of Letby's parents' home is shown to the court.
A photo of Lucy Letby's bedroom at the Hereford address is shown to the court.
A photo is shown inside Letby's wardrobe, and Mr Astbury asks about the 'Asda five-sheet strip cut paper shredder' - there was no shredder in the box, but inside were five nursing handover sheets, not related to the indictment.
Handwriting on the box says 'keep'.
...
3:00pm
Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, says a total of 257 handover sheets were recovered in the police search. Of those, 21 related to babies in the indictment.

Four of them were in the 'Ibiza bag' and 17 were in the Morrisons bag.

DC Johnson agrees.

Mr Myers says that meant 236 handover sheets were not in relation to the indictment.


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27
11:36am
In a third overarching interview, Letby is asked about the handover sheets.

She said, 'ideally', the handover sheets should be put in the confidential waste bin at the end of her shifts.

She said that at times, they would come home with her.

She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.

She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room.

She said she "didn't know how to dispose of them" and no-one else had seen them.

She said she would have seen those handover sheets at home "hardly ever".

She said she did not have a shredder and those sheets were at home 'inadvertently'.

Other paperwork at home would have been policy sheets from different hospitals, in relation on how to care when a patient presents with various symptoms.

I went looking for it too! It’s from this article: Lucy Letby weeps in the dock as jury shown pictures of her room

It says the handover sheets came from 250 shifts she worked during the relevant year period.

But I can’t see any other articles from that day saying the same.

It would make a huge difference if these sheets were across several years. But I suppose this is all we have to go on currently.

 

[ConcernedThirdParty]

I’m sorry but this is just not right as the role of a nurse. Without sounding malice, a nurse cannot be conceded about patients funerals or own grieving with so much attachment like this.
You seem to project your point of view as the parent; but the nurse is not there to be overly invested, attached and grieving her patients like this. Even more so when she has not had that much involvement/not key to that family.

It’s all very weird.
Respectfully, patients families may feel one way (absolutely so, it is their right) and I have known of nurses in the teams I’ve worked with attend a funeral (maybe at twice. These are older adults though, but can you imagine if I was then overly invested in someone I had not been the designated nurse or had much involvement in their care, or they were discharged or died a few days or whatever afterwards?

Nurses are NOT supposed to behave this way it’s very concerning. IMO

I'm assuming you're not speaking from personal experience as a nurse or medical professional or someone who has been in the hospital for a long stretch. But certainly I know from friends and family who have been unwell, had loved ones in the hospital or home care for long periods, or worked as medical professionals - that sometimes patients do get to know the doctors and nurses a bit and this is human and to be expected, and that patients will contact staff (mostly nurses because they're the ones they interact with), send cards, flowers, chocolates etc (to the hospital not their personal address) and invite them to funerals/memorial services.

It may not fit with the bureaucratic ideal, but we're all human and it certainly happens and I think for the most part, it's for the better that it continues to be tolerated - although I think guidelines would say "be careful" rather than "don't".

 

[marynnu]

I really do think it’s unforgiving to suggest that all NNU nurses have zero feelings for babies once they have left the unit Especially when it comes to something as impactful as a death. we have heard evidence that says the entire unit was affected by the deaths in essence their grieving process was dealt with on the unit as they are within their rights to be affected ted by it. Lucy letby s didn’t end at the unit which is my point. I really Do think it is an exceptionally tall order to expect all people to just forget about it and potentially unhealthy.

It"s the opposite of unhealthy. What good is a nurse, or any health professional, if they're moping around after a baby dies? Your job is to care for your patients. Feeling some sadness for the parents is enough. For example, I went to one baby funeral and that was enough for me, too sad. But that's just normal empathy, I wasn't grieving.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’ll try and give an example of how one might not be able to not feel anything in certain situations.

I was standing outside of my house speaking to someone when I saw a woman and her partner knocking on the house next door. They were two adults whom I barely paid any attention to at all. Never spoken a word to them or interacted in any way. On their way out I noticed the lady had quite a big baby bump. I couldn’t help the feeling I got. I saw the baby bump and something in my chest just leapt up and said very strongly “yes”. one of the MOST positive feelings I get is that. I don’t know why I just absolutely love seeing a pregnant woman I can’t help it. It’s embarrassing yes, it’s unusual as far as I know but it is just my innate tendency. It’s very embarrassing because I think it shows a lack of control but undeniably a positive thing for all.

 

[JerseyGirl]

'Sickening' being blamed for baby deaths - UK nurse

A British nurse accused of murder has said it was "sickening" when she discovered that she was being blamed for a number of baby deaths while doing the job she "loved".

www.rte.ie

 

[WaxLyrical]

I’ll try and give an example of how one might not be able to not feel anything in certain situations.

I was standing outside of my house speaking to someone when I saw a woman and her partner knocking on the house next door. They were two adults whom I barely paid any attention to at all. Never spoken a word to them or interacted in any way. On their way out I noticed the lady had quite a big baby bump. I couldn’t help the feeling I got. I saw the baby bump and something in my chest just leapt up and said very strongly “yes”. one of the MOST positive feelings I get is that. I don’t know why I just absolutely love seeing a pregnant woman I can’t help it. It’s embarrassing yes, it’s unusual as far as I know but it is just my innate tendency. It’s very embarrassing because I think it shows a lack of control but undeniably a positive thing for all.

Judging by the amount of people who leave all boundaries aside and grab the bellies of pregnant women, I’d say you’re not alone.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It"s the opposite of unhealthy. What good is a nurse, or any health professional, if they're moping around after a baby dies? Your job is to care for your patients. Feeling some sadness for the parents is enough. For example, I went to one baby funeral and that was enough for me, too sad. But that's just normal empathy, I wasn't grieving.

Unhealthy to expect in all and every situation. I think it would take years to Gain that level of professionalism. It really is against the innate tendency because everyone loves babies. I think a young nurse especially will be vulnerable to opening herself up without thinking of protecting herself should the worse happen Later down the line. If you condemn her for it your obviously not helping her in that situation. I couldn’t say to a NNU nurse if she was affected by something like that “just deal with it”.

 

[Anxala]

I really do think it’s unforgiving to suggest that all NNU nurses have zero feelings for babies once they have left the unit Especially when it comes to something as impactful as a death. we have heard evidence that says the entire unit was affected by the deaths in essence their grieving process was dealt with on the unit as they are within their rights to be affected ted by it. Lucy letby s didn’t end at the unit which is my point. I really Do think it is an exceptionally tall order to expect all people to just forget about it and potentially unhealthy.

I don't think that's what marynnu is suggesting at all, more that nurses need to have that distance in order to allow them to effectively continue doing the professional job they do. Death is an inevitable part of a nurse's job in a NNU and elsewhere. Sadness over a baby's death is normal, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. Fixation isn't and I do think we're dealing with a degree of fixation here.

Also, and I genuinely mean no disrespect here to you or anyone else, but this idea that everyone loves babies to the degree that you think they do is very subjective thinking on your part. It's no more true to say that than it is to say that nurses in general love all their patients. They don't because they can't! It would paralyse them!

All they can do is do their best by them, regardless of their ages, whilst they're in their care.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Judging by the amount of people who leave all boundaries aside and grab the bellies of pregnant women, I’d say you’re not alone.

I can refrain myself from grabbing but i will admit that I have those feelings, indeed I am a baby bump hugger if allowed to be.

 

[esther43]

I’ll try and give an example of how one might not be able to not feel anything in certain situations.

I was standing outside of my house speaking to someone when I saw a woman and her partner knocking on the house next door. They were two adults whom I barely paid any attention to at all. Never spoken a word to them or interacted in any way. On their way out I noticed the lady had quite a big baby bump. I couldn’t help the feeling I got. I saw the baby bump and something in my chest just leapt up and said very strongly “yes”. one of the MOST positive feelings I get is that. I don’t know why I just absolutely love seeing a pregnant woman I can’t help it. It’s embarrassing yes, it’s unusual as far as I know but it is just my innate tendency. It’s very embarrassing because I think it shows a lack of control but undeniably a positive thing for all.

I'm not sure I understand your point. You said you were going to give an example of how one might not be able to feel anything in certain situations and then proceeded to tell us about you feeling something in a situation..
Can you clarify plz.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think that's what marynnu is suggesting at all, more that nurses need to have that distance in order to allow them to effectively continue doing the job they do. Death is an inevitable part of a nurse's job in a NNU and elsewhere. Sadness over a baby's death is normal, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

I totally get that and agree. The distancing is done purely to make the nurse more effective. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to expect all of the time Especially with a relatively young and inexperienced nurse.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm not sure I understand your point. You said you were going to give an example of how one might not be able to feel anything in certain situations and then proceeded to tell us about you feeling something in a situation..
Can you clarify plz.

If that’s what I wrote then mission failed. I was trying to give an example of how one might not be able to help those feelings and resulting attachments until one has attained a certain level of experience.

 

[Sundial]

I'm assuming you're not speaking from personal experience as a nurse or medical professional or someone who has been in the hospital for a long stretch. But certainly I know from friends and family who have been unwell, had loved ones in the hospital or home care for long periods, or worked as medical professionals - that sometimes patients do get to know the doctors and nurses a bit and this is human and to be expected, and that patients will contact staff (mostly nurses because they're the ones they interact with), send cards, flowers, chocolates etc (to the hospital not their personal address) and invite them to funerals/memorial services.

It may not fit with the bureaucratic ideal, but we're all human and it certainly happens and I think for the most part, it's for the better that it continues to be tolerated - although I think guidelines would say "be careful" rather than "don't".

Why would you assume? Because as a nurse I have stated it is not right to be so overly completely invested to such a degree?

I’ll give you an example. I had a patient who was very unwell and a colleague was a designated nurse and got to know the family well. Long-term palliative care. When the patient died, my colleague was understandably very upset and so was the wider team. Loss is never easy for nurses, and undoubtedly hard for their families, regardless of patient group.

The family gave a card to the whole team, chocolates and an invite to the funeral to the nurse who they had undoubtedly built good rapport with.

Then could you imagine, if you had that one nurse that became overly so invested in the practice of memory boxes, persistent various searches on social media of patients and families like an obsession or found to have DOZENS of handover sheets in their home.

You would not think that was a problem? As a nurse, I would have a problem with my colleague doing that. In the teams I have worked with, seniors have also made this clear; you can be a good nurse with empathy and compassion, you get to the know the families.
However, this is not healthy and whilst I completely respect the views of parents and loved ones families (I have been a patient and also the caregiver of patients); the over investment into patients lives like this is concerning and is one that fitness to practice panels also take a dim view on.

If my child had died and I had very little rapport with a nurse who had barely even known my child in the short time they were there-I would not be ok with this; I would be completely creeped out.
IMO