UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

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  • #581
I disagree. Maternity and neonatal care is predominantly mother birthing and then her child. Mother is typically in most cases the primary caregiver. Family (extended beyond that) is secondary.
JMO
Lucy letby s main attachment is the baby hence why she is a NNU Nurse. Not to do with the job but solely to do with whatever gain she got from the fb searches on a personal level if innocent. In other words she wouldn’t fb search patients if she was responsible for reproductive health if that’s the right words.
 
  • #582
It was also reported that she spoke clearly. Quietly and clearly are perfectly legit objective descriptions of how someone is coming across. Subjective would be more if the reporter went on to interpret what her 'quiet and clear' delivery might mean.
Exactly! So it's okay to report on those interesting aspects of the way someone speaks, etc.
 
  • #583
This case… I just don’t know!
 
  • #584
The searches include the ones previously referred to in court, searching for the parents of babies named in the indictment, plus - on those same days - the Facebook searches for other babies' parents' names, work colleagues, and social and non-work related matters.

As an example, on June 9, 2015, in addition to a search for the mother's name of Child A and Child B, Letby carried out searches for three social contacts, two staffing colleagues - Ashleigh Hudson and David Harkness, and the name of a mother from a child from Liverpool Women's Hospital neonatal unit.


There have been references to her searching two mothers from Liverpool Womens. It woudl've been helpful to know if these were the mothers of the two babies she referred to as the baby who died and then the "dying bbay" she was handed afterwards, or just two random mothers.

Also although Ashleigh Hudson wasnt on shift when Baby A died, David Harkness was the doctor at the resus, so searching him in addition to Baby A and B's mother, could be connected to Baby A's death.

All JMO


 
  • #585
So those interesting snippets about voice, etc., may be acceptable after all.
Certainly if the judge has told her to speak up then it's reasonable to report that she was speaking quietly. Even if he didn't then maybe it's okay to say as most people know what is meant by speaking softly/quietly so I suppose it's only partially opinion.

Problems may arise if they said she was "looking nervous" or "exuded confidence" or something because that's simply opinion and different people may not have those feelings about a person. These are things which could definitely sway someone's mind if they aren't there to assess it in person.
 
  • #586
After that image (unwanted) I would agree but the attachment isn’t to the mother, it’s to the baby and the family. Everyone loves babies and cares for them and that’s what the attachment is. Potentially and imo.
No, the idea is to get the mother and baby to bond. Not to bond with the baby yourself. That's what you do with your own children.
 
  • #587
The searches include the ones previously referred to in court, searching for the parents of babies named in the indictment, plus - on those same days - the Facebook searches for other babies' parents' names, work colleagues, and social and non-work related matters.

As an example, on June 9, 2015, in addition to a search for the mother's name of Child A and Child B, Letby carried out searches for three social contacts, two staffing colleagues - Ashleigh Hudson and David Harkness, and the name of a mother from a child from Liverpool Women's Hospital neonatal unit.


There have been references to her searching two mothers from Liverpool Womens. It woudl've been helpful to know if these were the mothers of the two babies she referred to as the baby who died and then the "dying bbay" she was handed afterwards, or just two random mothers.

Also although Ashleigh Hudson wasnt on shift when Baby A died, David Harkness was the doctor at the resus, so searching him in addition to Baby A and B's mother, could be connected to Baby A's death.

All JMO


I think that’s a logical observation. If a memory is linked then when recalled you remember who else was involved in the event. Ie she searches for someone and then the memory is recalled that reminds them of someone else who was present At the time.
 
  • #588
She was quite clearly hanging onto them in my view. For what reason is the real question though. JMO.
There is no doubt that she was. Why she's playing down their significance is the real question, though.

I've seen similar before in people who have experienced MH issues, especially breakdowns through great stress and trauma. Answers to simple questions are sometimes irrational because they don't know why, or can't address why, they did (or didn't do) something. Her answers seem to follow that pattern.
 
  • #589
Exactly! So it's okay to report on those interesting aspects of the way someone speaks, etc.

Yes. As long as it's just objective observation - ie. fact-reporting - and no attempt is made by the reporter to try and lead the reader into seeing hidden meaning (positive or negative) in that observation.
 
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  • #590
No, the idea is to get the mother and baby to bond. Not to bond with the baby yourself. That's what you do with your own children.
I totally get that but with what I call an innate tendency ie “everyone loves babies” she might not be able to completely sever any attachment at all. I get the idea but the reality is different. I really would expect at least some attachment to the baby from some nurses on a NNU especially when in regards to what is a highly memorable event. I don’t really mean bond but a feeling of care which sometimes would involve curiosity after the family have left the ward. I wouldn’t really expect that feeling towards an adult by themselves but babies definitely as “everyone loves babies”.
jmo.
 
  • #591
Lucy letby s main attachment is the baby hence why she is a NNU Nurse. Not to do with the job but solely to do with whatever gain she got from the fb searches on a personal level if innocent. In other words she wouldn’t fb search patients if she was responsible for reproductive health if that’s the right words.
A valid point re babies and her job in NNU, but even looking up the family/mother a year after the event is strange. It’s not her business and even more so on anniversary/milestone dates, I’m surprised she even remembered these key dates alone tbh when you encounter so many patients.

In any case, I don’t think you could suggest she wouldn’t search patients if she was responsible for reproductive health. I very much get the impression she had no boundaries searching and taking home all these sheets etc, working in a different specialism sounds like it would have made no difference.
All very messed up imo.
 
  • #592
I think that’s a logical observation. If a memory is linked then when recalled you remember who else was involved in the event. Ie she searches for someone and then the memory is recalled that reminds them of someone else who was present At the time.
It was the day after Baby A died, so still fresh in the memory at that point. Also Baby B was still on the ward (their mother was still in the hospital too) so the search of their mother can't have been carried out to see how Baby B was doing either.
 
  • #593
I totally get that but with what I call an innate tendency ie “everyone loves babies” she might not be able to completely sever any attachment at all. I get the idea but the reality is different. I really would expect at least some attachment to the baby from some nurses on a NNU especially when in regards to what is a highly memorable event. I don’t really mean bond but a feeling of care which sometimes would involve curiosity after the family have left the ward. I wouldn’t really expect that feeling towards an adult by themselves but babies definitely as “everyone loves babies”.
jmo.

Absoutely not. Caring about the babies and parents is not attachment. They are not your children. NNUs are busy places, babies are admitted and discharged all the time. Once they've left that's that, you just get on with caring for the patients you have. Which is as it should be.
 
  • #594
The searches include the ones previously referred to in court, searching for the parents of babies named in the indictment, plus - on those same days - the Facebook searches for other babies' parents' names, work colleagues, and social and non-work related matters.

As an example, on June 9, 2015, in addition to a search for the mother's name of Child A and Child B, Letby carried out searches for three social contacts, two staffing colleagues - Ashleigh Hudson and David Harkness, and the name of a mother from a child from Liverpool Women's Hospital neonatal unit.


There have been references to her searching two mothers from Liverpool Womens. It woudl've been helpful to know if these were the mothers of the two babies she referred to as the baby who died and then the "dying bbay" she was handed afterwards, or just two random mothers.

Also although Ashleigh Hudson wasnt on shift when Baby A died, David Harkness was the doctor at the resus, so searching him in addition to Baby A and B's mother, could be connected to Baby A's death.

All JMO


Another interesting point, the mothers from Liverpool women’s.

Just really uncomfortably odd and unsettling imo
 
  • #595
Full respect to you Mary. Real empathy there which is high grade stuff. Let’s get married. :). I fully agree, anyone standing on the precipice like her would be thinking of themselves 100%. The entire trial is about her, if found ng it becomes about everything else.
Yes. If NG the focus will be on resources and management. The Countess ( no one local calls it by its full name) was 116th out of 200 Trusts in a recent survey Cheshire Live News Article :oops:
Edited for typo!
 
  • #596
There is no doubt that she was. Why she's playing down their significance is the real question, though.

I've seen similar before in people who have experienced MH issues, especially breakdowns through great stress and trauma. Answers to simple questions are sometimes irrational because they don't know why, or can't address why, they did (or didn't do) something. Her answers seem to follow that pattern.
Do you accept that, if guilty, she may be playing down the significance of the handover notes because they may be significant due to maybe using them to research babies, select potential victims, and/or keep records of their collapses to either re-live or learn from when planning the next alleged attacks? Or do you think the only explanation is that it must be some unrelated hoarding/mental health issue?

JMO, if guilty
 
  • #597
It was the day after Baby A died, so still fresh in the memory at that point. Also Baby B was still on the ward (their mother was still in the hospital too) so the search of their mother can't have been carried out to see how Baby B was doing either.
A valid point re babies and her job in NNU, but even looking up the family/mother a year after the event is strange. It’s not her business and even more so on anniversary/milestone dates, I’m surprised she even remembered these key dates alone tbh when you encounter so many patients.

In any case, I don’t think you could suggest she wouldn’t search patients if she was responsible for reproductive health. I very much get the impression she had no boundaries searching and taking home all these sheets etc, working in a different specialism sounds like it would have made no difference.
All very messed up imo.
Yip there is definitely some searches there that are indicative especially so long after the events. My points are to do with what we can expect from the events by themselves and if indeed anything is grossly out of the ordinary.

I can’t suggest she wouldn’t look up patients of reproductive health only that I think the feelings towards the babs will be the reason for the searches. These are feelings that I think are reasonable to expect because indeed “everyone loves babies” whereas one wouldn’t get these feelings for patients in a reproductive health clinic. feelings for babies are different from feelings towards adults.
 
  • #598
Is that not their role? That even if guilty and the evidence stacks up against someone and glaring them in the face; their barrister is “for” their client in winning their case?
If a barrister is told by his client that they are guilty she cannot then represent them on a NG plea. She can plead mitigation for them , but that is it .
 
  • #599
If she was concerned about the funeral yes or how we are coping afterwards. indeed if it helped with her own grieving process which is what a funeral is for Then I wouldn’t necessarily object. At the end of the day she would have been involved in what would be one of the most significant life events and I would expect some but not all to have their own ways of dealing with those feelings.

I don't think Baby A's parents were planning the funeral a few hours after his death. She also had no need of a grieving process as she was not grieving. Funeral arrangements were none if her business, frankly. All JMO.
 
  • #600
If she was concerned about the funeral yes or how we are coping afterwards. indeed if it helped with her own grieving process which is what a funeral is for Then I wouldn’t necessarily object. At the end of the day she would have been involved in what would be one of the most significant life events and I would expect some but not all to have their own ways of dealing with those feelings.
I’m sorry but this is just not right as the role of a nurse. Without sounding malice, a nurse cannot be conceded about patients funerals or own grieving with so much attachment like this.
You seem to project your point of view as the parent; but the nurse is not there to be overly invested, attached and grieving her patients like this. Even more so when she has not had that much involvement/not key to that family.

It’s all very weird.
Respectfully, patients families may feel one way (absolutely so, it is their right) and I have known of nurses in the teams I’ve worked with attend a funeral (maybe at twice. These are older adults though, but can you imagine if I was then overly invested in someone I had not been the designated nurse or had much involvement in their care, or they were discharged or died a few days or whatever afterwards?

Nurses are NOT supposed to behave this way it’s very concerning. IMO
 
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