UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

Well, when you put it like that..

But as I say, the closest we have to a smoking gun is the sheer totality of coincedences surrounding Ms. Letby and the babies collapsing. There is nothing directly linking Ms. Letby and the circumstances outlined in your post.

And to answer your question, most murder trials there is a clear motive, the accused often has a propensity for violence, there is often witness testimony to suggest an attack was imminent, there can be witness testimony of words spoken by an attacker about the attack, there is often CCTV evidence that places the accused nearby the crime scene, or en route to and from the burial site, there is often forensic evidence implicating the accused that goes far beyond a few Facebook searches.

Here we have nothing concrete. We have Ms Letby supposedly being odd and going salsa dancing. Big deal.

But LL was the ONLY person who could have delivered insulin into the babies!

That isn’t circumstantial - it’s a fact.

Furthermore, we’re not talking about a random murderer stalking the streets at night looking for a victim - this is a completely different set of circumstances. She was in a position of trust, and how do you know she didn’t want to work with babies because she had a secret desire to do do this? Of course she wouldn’t be so stupid to act strangely or aggressive amongst her colleagues - she’s not that daft. Many, many murderers when caught surprise their workmates, neighbours etc…and say what a gentle friendly man he seemed.

It happens all the time.

No-one really knows what goes on inside someone’s head. But that one note alone that she wrote displays she had deep serious issues. And to say she “purposely” killed the babies aren’t the words of an innocent person IMO.

 

[JosieJo]

Are these 22 women completely unexpected to ever have encountered this individual within a professional setting?

No ...an encounter can be expected via the app ...something millions do in normal life ...the women encountered others on the app but by far this was the only man that met all of them

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

With all respect to yourself, I think where you are getting it wrong, from a judicial point of view, is that claiming circumstances like no babies collapsing during her vacation is evidence that Ms Letby physically attacked babies.

If we are to look at this with a truly open mind, then if there is some unkown explanation as to why these collapses happened, then were we to know all the answers we might understand whether or not there was a reason why there were no collapses when Ms. Letby was on holiday.

However, we don't have the answers so we are left guessing.

The absence of unexplained collapses whilst Ms. Letby was away, does not, of itself, implicate Ms. Letby in the collapses that did happen whilst she was on shift, and that's a fine line worth appreciating.

Just because something cannot be explained does not equate to any inferred guilt of any party, accused or otherwise.

Simply put, we can't just say that because it doesnt make sense it must be XYZ. We either make it make sense, or we hold our hands up and admit we genuinely can't be sure.

With all due respect, I’m not sure you’ve read all the facts.

He can you say there was some unknown reason why these babies died when highly qualified consultants have proven the babies were injected with air and insulin? And only when LL was caring for them?

 

[Sweeper2000]

No ...an encounter can be expected via the app ...something millions do in normal life ...the women encountered others on the app but by far this was the only man that met all of them

I get what you are saying. It’s just the difference in circumstances. It’s not in any way a remarkable thing for a nurse to be bedside on a hospital unit.

 

[Sundial]

With all respect to yourself, I think where you are getting it wrong, from a judicial point of view, is that claiming circumstances like no babies collapsing during her vacation is evidence that Ms Letby physically attacked babies.

If we are to look at this with a truly open mind, then if there is some unkown explanation as to why these collapses happened, then were we to know all the answers we might understand whether or not there was a reason why there were no collapses when Ms. Letby was on holiday.

However, we don't have the answers so we are left guessing.

The absence of unexplained collapses whilst Ms. Letby was away, does not, of itself, implicate Ms. Letby in the collapses that did happen whilst she was on shift, and that's a fine line worth appreciating.

Just because something cannot be explained does not equate to any inferred guilt of any party, accused or otherwise.

Simply put, we can't just say that because it doesnt make sense it must be XYZ. We either make it make sense, or we hold our hands up and admit we genuinely can't be sure.

But is that not what medical experts have testified? That there was air and milk and insulin fed to these babies deliberately- indicating there were explanations.

Agreed facts by both prosecution and defence were the heat map and phone pings/messenger and door swipe entry that also placed her in certain points at the times of the alleged collapses.

Sure we could debate it could be coincidence or whatever but I’m not sure we could say these are unexplained.
JMO

 

[JosieJo]

I get what you are saying. It’s just the difference in circumstances. It’s not in any way a remarkable thing for a nurse to be bedside on a hospital unit.

It's not remarkable these days to use dating apps

 

[JosieJo]

But is that not what medical experts have testified? That there was air and milk and insulin fed to these babies deliberately- indicating there were explanations.

Agreed facts by both prosecution and defence were the heat map and phone pings/messenger and door swipe entry that also placed her in certain points at the times of the alleged collapses.

Sure we could debate it could be coincidence or whatever but I’m not sure we could say these are unexplained.
JMO

I have never experienced a case where people seem to disregard multiple expert medical witnesses all coming to the same conclusion

 

[Sundial]

With all due respect, I’m not sure you’ve read all the facts.

He can you say there was some unknown reason why these babies died when highly qualified consultants have proven the babies were injected with air and insulin? And only when LL was caring for them?

I must say i have a general feeling there have been some posters today that haven’t read the evidence already presented.
It’s very compelling including the medical experts all agreeing on the same thing including evidence from families witness statements and colleagues.
Some of this is even evidence the defence and prosecution have both agreed on including the heat map and data taken from door swipe entry.
Moo

 

[Sundial]

I have never experienced a case where people seem to disregard multiple expert medical witnesses all coming to the same conclusion

Me neither. The mind boggles and yet all the evidence and sources has been linked back numerous times throughout the threads.

 

[JosieJo]

Excellent points, Josie.

Especially the sympathy card: I wonder if she can produce pictures of greeting/sympathy cards she’s sent to anyone else? IMO I bet she can’t.

It’s a souvenir.

This is a question I'm very interested in ...if she often took photos of cards there will be more on her phone ...we have not heard Myers suggest there was ?

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

This is pure speculation and has no place in jury deliberations, JMO.

I did say it was speculation (I put MOO)

And we’re not the jury here - we’re discussing the case.

Big difference.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

This is a question I'm very interested in ...if she often took photos of cards there will be more on her phone ...we have not heard Myers suggest there was ?

Exactly.

He would have jumped on that had LL always taken photos of cards she’d sent to people, but he didn’t. And by not doing so is rather damning IMO.

 

[notsure]

Interesting to see the report on the BBC TV News at Ten tonight. The reporter described how the courtroom was absolutely silent as LL answered the questions, speaking clearly and looking directly at the jury, while families of the alleged victims and her own parents watched from the gallery.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I often wonder if similar evidence in a different situation would be viewed in the same way...

Imagine 22 young women 10 killed 12 attacked and left for dead ...

The women all used a dating app and only one person had contacted all of them

This person amongst lots of other searches searched many of the women on Facebook

This person had taken a photo of 2 of the women's online conversations and kept them on their phone

I find the prosecution’s case compelling, but I’ll tell you where the seed of doubt is for me.

These babies’ deaths were not considered suspicious, despite post mortems and debriefs. And even despite a few voices expressing concern internally, the majority dismissed those concerns outright. So they looked retrospectively for foul play, and they’ve found it.

So the question for me is whether, were they to apply the same level of retrospective scrutiny to other premature deaths across the country, might they come across similar findings. It left an impression on me when Dr Evans said the specific lines of air seen in these cases are also seen in SIDS cases. Now, I don’t believe these babies died of SIDS, I’m aware such deaths can’t occur on a hospital ward. But it tells me there are ‘unexplained’ deaths in which this air is found without any explanation for how it got there. My understanding is the specific air findings referred to are not the same as normal port mortem accumulation of air. I’m not questioning the expertise of the experts, but it’s a cause of death that not many seem to know too much about.

In terms of NG air, Letby testified today that the NGs are not always aspirated before feeling. This is very significant information, because until this point I’ve understood that air being aspirated alongside milk vomit has no reasonable explanation, because the air would have been aspirated. But that’s called into question now.

The FB and handover sheet evidence is significantly weakened now the context has been added.

For me, the entire case hinges on the insulin poisonings. But even that has questions, considering we’ve had a nurse testify under oath that the TPN bag was changed unexpectedly the following day. And the pattern of her being the only nurse present is no longer there when only those cases are considered.

There are two outcomes from where I’m sitting, keeping in mind she’s not on trial for being a bit of an odd bod. Either we have frankly psychopathic and sadistic behaviour, like arranging a housewarming party in the minutes between attacking two vulnerable babies, and manipulating others beyond belief for much of her life, or we have a bunch of the worst coincidences imaginable in respect of a competent nurse who threw herself head first into caring for intensive care babies. There’s nothing in the middle.

I’m hopeful the jury will arrive at a decision, and I’m confident in our judicial system. I am also acutely aware that the jury are privy to much much more information that we are, and hopefully things are clear for them.

I also enjoy the chat, so happy to play devils advocate as it helps me to get a clearer understanding in my own mind.

All my opinion.

 

[notsure]

Exactly.

He would have jumped on that had LL always taken photos of cards she’d sent to people, but he didn’t. And by not doing so is rather damning IMO.

If no other cards had been found, you would expect the prosecution to bring that up.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

I would need to see information that suggests she did indeed search for that name in particular and wasn’t part of a group of searches or a suggestion by fb memory algorithm ie searches made as part of what is proximal to her.

The police have already established LL did actual searches for the parents of the babies she allegedly killed. Their IT team go through a suspect’s computer and phone with such accuracy you wouldn’t believe. She wasn’t a friend of theirs on Facebook, hence her searching, and they’d never have come up in FB’s algorithms as there was zero connection. But that’s irrelevant as they categorically know LL searched for them numerous times. That sounds to me like she wanted to see public updates where they may have mentioned their heartache. What other reason would she have wanted to search their updates - even on Christmas Day?

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

in all the reports about the fb searches there are numerous searches within minutes of each other. All of them As far as I can remember. The quotes today include hundreds of searches in a single month. That information suggests to me that she is just fb scanning and only paying very brief attention to any individual search.

there are some more indicative searches, i think she searched for one family after suspension.

It depends if the Facebook profiles are public. Many people only post a few public posts, keeping their other posts only available to their friends. LL wasn’t their friend so she would’ve only seen one it two latest public posts, which is why she wouldn’t have been able to trawl through all their posts.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

If no other cards had been found, you would expect the prosecution to bring that up.

Yes, I would. Definitely.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Exactly.

He would have jumped on that had LL always taken photos of cards she’d sent to people, but he didn’t. And by not doing so is rather damning IMO.

The prosecution didn’t suggest it was a lie though, it wasn’t called into question at all, so why would BM bring it up?

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

I’ve been thinking this for ages too because of the unusualness of making so many searches regularly. I know the prosecution and defence have both accepted the data but I work in tech and can easily see how other things (e.g. suggestions) might end up being erroneously classified as ‘searches’. Which would also explain why she doesn’t remember. I would love to see the raw data.

The police have the most highly qualified analysts searching data, so trust me, if Therese said (and shown) which they have, evidence that LL actively searched for those parents - then she did. Saying she doesn’t remember searching for them is proof that she couldn’t think what to tell them as to why she was searching.

My guess is is she wanted to see if they mentioned their heartache. JMO.