UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

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  • #741
So
People.com was well informed, no?

Just saying ;)

Good night :)
They may have been.....or they may just have been guessing.

I'm sure they weren't informed of anything by the CPS, though.

I'm actually tempted to make a FOI request to ask them, to be honest.
 
  • #742
Skipped a fair bit of the thread so sorry if it's been mentioned.
Do you get a hand over sheet her patient or all the designated babies on the one sheet?
 
  • #743
They may have been.....or they may just have been guessing.

I'm sure they weren't informed of anything by the CPS, though.

I'm actually tempted to make a FOI request to ask them, to be honest.
I know nobody here seems to believe it (maybe none of you follow celeb news as closely as I do, lol) but People really do have a track record of only publishing what is confirmed to them by legitimate sources, eg celeb's own management/PR. They don't publish rumours or speculation. They have a really good rep with celebs because of that, its why they get the exclusives to show people's weddings etc. They have been getting more into true crime in recent years, and I can't imagine why they'd abandon that philosophy just because they were no longer only about celebrity/entertainment news.

eg if People publishes that a couple have broken up its because the PR reps for that couple have gone to People with that info - not because a journo at People noticed the couple had stopped following each other on Insta, or whatever else people do to speculate on that kind of stuff. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they had sources in LE in the UK. Thats not to say they're infallible of course - even the most reliable and trustworthy mainstream newspapers get things wrong sometimes.

All JMO/MOO/IME etc
 
  • #744
Letby says it would not be unusual for her to make several searches in a few minutes on somebody on Facebook. "That would be normal for me".

Nine searches in 9 minutes sounds bizarre to me. That looks like someone who is looking for something in particular....

If you were browsing surely, you'd have a good scroll through?

But then given that these were 'duplicate' searches, perhaps she didn't need much scroll time because she was just checking to see if anything new had been added since the last time she looked.

I would only say that young people operate differently on social media than older folk such as myself and I don't go on FB any more but there was a time when it could be interesting looking up 'mutuals' ie friends of friends etc and maybe that could result on clicking on numerous profiles within a very short time. I think the security settings of FB have been modified so that there's a way higher level of privacy now but there was a time where you could look at someone's page and have a proper gander at who everyone they know is too.
 
  • #745
I totally get that and agree. The distancing is done purely to make the nurse more effective. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to expect all of the time Especially with a relatively young and inexperienced nurse.
If that’s what I wrote then mission failed. I was trying to give an example of how one might not be able to help those feelings and resulting attachments until one has attained a certain level of experience.


Are you trying to suggest that LL's problem is that she just loves babies so much and is so fixated upon them that it is affecting her professionalism?
 
  • #746
I absolutely get why she might not want to do that; she's single, lived alone in a big house (big for one person), the vast majority of people she knew she knew through work as she lived miles away from where she grew up and her whole life seemed to revolve around work and the social contacts which arose through it.

She seemed to have a very busy social diary outside of work, meals, pub quiz team, concerts, salsa dancing, etc. I get the impression that she's not the type who has much experience of spending time on her own (and probably fears it) and if that's the case then I completely understand why she wouldn't want to take time off. It's not necessarily an indication of heartlessness or being self centred.
If I was innocent, and others were beginning to suspect somewthing weird was going on with me and collapsing babies on my shifts, I'd want to step back and let OTHERS be the ones in the rooms with the unexplained incidents. I wouldnt want others to keep connecting me with the unexplained collapses.

That has always made me a bit suspicious that she didn't do anything to help clear her name when she had many chances to do so. When her bosses would suggest she spend some shifts with the healthier babies for a bit, she flatly refused and only wanted to be in room one. She wouldn't be in this position now, if innocent, had she listened to her colleagues. JMO
 
  • #747
It’s a bit self defeating to suggest someone won’t get ptsd through murdering babies but will get ptsd when arrested for it. She’s probably got no idea what’s causing her to not sleep.
EXACTLY. But I answered these posts because your OP was that 'we now know she is not a psychopath like BA because LL has PTSD and can't sleep'

And I pushed back on that because we have no idea if she is or isn't guilty of these crimes yet ----she could have PTSD, allegedly, because she can't believe she has been caught. JMO
 
  • #748
So even if completely innocent, Ms Letby still brought this impending, life changing nightmare upon herself, by being somewhat of a workaholic, and by believing she was a vital part of a team helping to bring life into this world?

Wow.
NO, that's not what I am saying. It's not about her being a workaholic.

I'm saying that early on she heard the rumblings that she was being suspected of being connected to the unexplained collapses. She paid no heed but doubled down on being alone with the most poorly babies, even when her bosses and colleagues suggested she changed things up---for her own good.

She was stubborn and somewhat arrogant, imo. She ignored the advice of those who knew better and continued to do some suspicious things, even as babies were collapsing, night after night, mysteriously.

It wasn't about her being a workaholic. It was about a flurry of babies having sudden unexplained collapses, when she was in the room, or had been moments before, and se was the one constant factor in each of the charged cases.

A baby in her care would collapse on a Friday, and she'd leave the unit for vacation, and there'd be no collapses for 8 days. On the very day she returned, a healthy baby would suddenly collapse, and die, and hours later his triplet brother would suddenly die as well. And then a 3rd collapsed the next night too. THree in a row, starting on the night she retuned from vacation.


So it is more than just her working extra shifts. If these were just random incidents and she was just unlucky for working all the time, those collapses would also be happening during her vacations, but they were not. They were happening specifically when she worked and usually when she was in that same room with the baby within minutes of the collapse.
 
  • #749
With all respect to yourself, I think where you are getting it wrong, from a judicial point of view, is that claiming circumstances like no babies collapsing during her vacation is evidence that Ms Letby physically attacked babies.

If we are to look at this with a truly open mind, then if there is some unkown explanation as to why these collapses happened, then were we to know all the answers we might understand whether or not there was a reason why there were no collapses when Ms. Letby was on holiday.

However, we don't have the answers so we are left guessing.

The absence of unexplained collapses whilst Ms. Letby was away, does not, of itself, implicate Ms. Letby in the collapses that did happen whilst she was on shift, and that's a fine line worth appreciating.

Just because something cannot be explained does not equate to any inferred guilt of any party, accused or otherwise.

Simply put, we can't just say that because it doesnt make sense it must be XYZ. We either make it make sense, or we hold our hands up and admit we genuinely can't be sure.
I disagree, if looking at the big calendar.

There were TWO vacations at the very least, where no unexplained collapses happened when she was away. In fact, there were never any unexplained collapses when she was not on the unit.

So it is relevant that these collapses were happening only when she was present.

WHY is it relevant? Because the medical experts have testified that there was someone purposely attacking these babies. It was not due to a virus or infection or accidental means. Someone, had to be acting maliciously. And it had to be a nurse.

And once we know there was a nurse acting maliciously, then we have to narrow it down by who was present at the time.

So it becomes highly relevant when no collapses happened when LL was away on vacations but they all happened when she was on the unit.
 
  • #750
  • #751
I get what you are saying. It’s just the difference in circumstances. It’s not in any way a remarkable thing for a nurse to be bedside on a hospital unit.
But it is a remarkable thing for a nurse to come on duty, be at the bedside of a HEALTHY baby, considered stable and settled, and have that baby suddenly collapse, so seriously that they need 8 shots of adrenaline .

And it is remarkable when that same scenario happens repeatedly for a solid year.
 
  • #752
I must say i have a general feeling there have been some posters today that haven’t read the evidence already presented.
It’s very compelling including the medical experts all agreeing on the same thing including evidence from families witness statements and colleagues.
Some of this is even evidence the defence and prosecution have both agreed on including the heat map and data taken from door swipe entry.
Moo
I have never experienced a case where people seem to disregard multiple expert medical witnesses all coming to the same conclusion
With all due respect, I’m not sure you’ve read all the facts.

He can you say there was some unknown reason why these babies died when highly qualified consultants have proven the babies were injected with air and insulin? And only when LL was caring for them?


YES. It seems that some are ignoring the known facts, some even agreed upon by the defense already.

Some seem to think we are reacting solely to the FB searches, handovers and the shredder controversy, to make our minds up about guilt or innocence. There has been many months of medical evidence and logistical data given already that set the scene and build the case. JMO

Now I want to hear the defense case and how they rebut the suspicious circumstances that have me concerned.
 
  • #753
And once we know there was a nurse acting maliciously, then we have to narrow it down by who was present at the time.

So it becomes highly relevant when no collapses happened when LL was away on vacations but they all happened when she was on the unit.
RSBM.

The fact LL was on duty when all the babies died is only circumstantial evidence, and you cannot convict someone solely on that.
It has to be forensically proven that she intentionally killed them.
 
  • #754
People were thinking along those lines though. Dr J raised concerns with Stephen B after Baby D, and even the nurses were talking about the deaths as being ‘odd’. Discussions of the strange rash. So I struggle to accept that all the suspicious deaths were just allowed to keep happening while everyone chose to turn a blind eye, especially if, as you say, this activity is unheard of in NNUs. JMO.
But I think we saw that it is virtually impossible to do anything about it immediately without solid evidence of wrong doing.And I think , if guilty, LL did a great job of camoflauging things by changing up the methods and confusing everyone.

Even once the consultants had caught on, the nurse's union and the management had to push back because of potential lawsuits etc.
 
  • #755
RSBM.

The fact LL was on duty when all the babies died is only circumstantial evidence, and you cannot convict someone solely on that.
It has to be forensically proven that she intentionally killed them

Yes, that is true. The forensics has to come from the medical experts reports. But there will never be forensics showing who was the one that put air in the lines.

It is possible to prove murder using circumstantial evidence though. If the jury believes the medical experts about the deaths being caused by malicious actions and circumstantial evidence proves that LL was the only person who could have done those actions, it could be successful.
 
  • #756
Following , like most I never imagined Lucy would testify, but glad she is, out of personal defence, to which she has absolute right, but also I think it is correct that she faces up to the jury and families who are hearing such terrible alleged crimes.
 
  • #757
People were thinking along those lines though. Dr J raised concerns with Stephen B after Baby D, and even the nurses were talking about the deaths as being ‘odd’. Discussions of the strange rash. So I struggle to accept that all the suspicious deaths were just allowed to keep happening while everyone chose to turn a blind eye, especially if, as you say, this activity is unheard of in NNUs. JMO.


If guilty, this makes the hospital look even worse than it did already in allowing this to go on as long as it did, considering she was “new” to intensive care. JMO.
I find the prosecution’s case compelling, but I’ll tell you where the seed of doubt is for me.

These babies’ deaths were not considered suspicious, despite post mortems and debriefs. And even despite a few voices expressing concern internally, the majority dismissed those concerns outright. So they looked retrospectively for foul play, and they’ve found it.

So the question for me is whether, were they to apply the same level of retrospective scrutiny to other premature deaths across the country, might they come across similar findings. It left an impression on me when Dr Evans said the specific lines of air seen in these cases are also seen in SIDS cases. Now, I don’t believe these babies died of SIDS, I’m aware such deaths can’t occur on a hospital ward. But it tells me there are ‘unexplained’ deaths in which this air is found without any explanation for how it got there. My understanding is the specific air findings referred to are not the same as normal port mortem accumulation of air. I’m not questioning the expertise of the experts, but it’s a cause of death that not many seem to know too much about.

In terms of NG air, Letby testified today that the NGs are not always aspirated before feeling. This is very significant information, because until this point I’ve understood that air being aspirated alongside milk vomit has no reasonable explanation, because the air would have been aspirated. But that’s called into question now.

The FB and handover sheet evidence is significantly weakened now the context has been added.

For me, the entire case hinges on the insulin poisonings. But even that has questions, considering we’ve had a nurse testify under oath that the TPN bag was changed unexpectedly the following day. And the pattern of her being the only nurse present is no longer there when only those cases are considered.

There are two outcomes from where I’m sitting, keeping in mind she’s not on trial for being a bit of an odd bod. Either we have frankly psychopathic and sadistic behaviour, like arranging a housewarming party in the minutes between attacking two vulnerable babies, and manipulating others beyond belief for much of her life, or we have a bunch of the worst coincidences imaginable in respect of a competent nurse who threw herself head first into caring for intensive care babies. There’s nothing in the middle.

I’m hopeful the jury will arrive at a decision, and I’m confident in our judicial system. I am also acutely aware that the jury are privy to much much more information that we are, and hopefully things are clear for them.

I also enjoy the chat, so happy to play devils advocate as it helps me to get a clearer understanding in my own mind.

All my opinion.

Ok, Wax,
Help me here. On one hand you are complaining that the hospital ' allowed this to go on as long as it did'------Suggesting they should have legally shut LL down much sooner.

But then you also say that maybe "... we have a bunch of the worst coincidences imaginable in respect of a competent nurse who threw herself head first into caring for intensive care babies."

So which is it? Is the hospital wrong for not seeing LL as a dangerous person who needed to be removed? Or is LE wrong for bringing these charges against her?

It is a difficult situation for sure. But I think they absolutely had to bring her to trial to sort this out. JMO
 
  • #758
The rules here are that if you state something as a fact then you are either an accredited expert or you post a link to an article published by a credible outside source.
It has been posted here several times, that Dr Breary testified that there were no other unexplained collapses in which LL was not present on the unit. Tortoise posted that testimony yesterday and it was reposted at least once.
 
  • #759
I've been thinking about the "You knew I loved you" note written by LL. We've been taking it to mean a doctor - but is it possible that it was referring to one of the babies who died? Like "You didn't have much of a life, but at least you knew I loved you."
 
  • #760
Had the neo-natal unit at the Countess not been downgraded at that point and the babies requiring more specialist care were sent elsewhere?
Some of the babies that had collapsed had been assessed as healthy. A few were about to be released for home, one had just reached 100 days and that is considered very stable, and many were assessed as being healthy and stable when they inexplicably collapsed.

So there still would have been collapses if Meyers allegations that the workers were incompetent and sub-optimal and unit was understaffed was true. JMO
 
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