UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[esther43]

Anyone know if for some reason the milk itself was not able to be expressed in time for the 9pm visit it would be recorded? Someone said it plays a part in prevention of nec so I would guess important enough to be documented? I don’t remember anything being presented that might mean the 9pm visit wasn’t able to be met on time. Thus making the out of sync 10pm visit more likely.

imoo this case is particularly horrifying.

eta I can see why it could not be on the proper notes

Dbm

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

Giving birth makes you tired, sore, emotional. It doesn't make you imagine fictitious events. Now no one's memory is 100 percent accurate. Memory doesn't work like a camcorder. But you wouldn't imagine you had heard your baby screaming if he wasn't. You wouldn't hallucinate blood where there was no blood. The father hadn't just given birth. He remembered the phone call just after 9 and corroborated the moms account.

Many people have explained that there was no swipe card for accessing Nicu from the maternity ward.

The father was not asked, nor required to have recalled the phone call until years after it happened.
There is every chance that phone calls at various times were mistaken, a call that happend closer to 10pm was erroneously thought to have taken place at 9, for example. Perfectly understandable.

As for the question of an epidural, although the pain relief wears off after around 2hrs, the after affects have been known to last for days. This is a shot of steroids into the space around the spinal chord, at the very minmum it would knock a person for six.

 

[Tortoise]

Lest we should forget, in the words of Dr Marnerides,

'We are not discussing possibilities here, we are discussing probabilities.

'When you refer to possibilities, I am thinking for example of somebody walking in the middle of the Sahara desert found dead with a pot and head trauma.

'It is possible the pot fell from the air from a helicopter. The question is 'is it probable?' and I don't think we can say it is probable.'


'Forceful CPR' can't explain baby's liver damage, Letby trial hears

It's not the role of the jury to consider whether a pot might have fallen from the sky.

 

[Cvarney]

But with respect sweep giving birth is all the things you have mentioned but it doesn’t USUALLY include memory loss.
It’s the single most significant point in most mothers life. You remember everything. My daughter was born 20 + years ago at home. I could take you through the day like it was yesterday. I know who I believe and it’s not Letby.
She’s cunning, crafty and manipulative and fighting for her life here on the stand that’s understandable but she’s changing / forgetting / disputing, eye witness reports, mobile phone data, door swipe data and colleagues recollection of events.
She’s developed amnesia and is contradicting her police interviews and that’s with her own counsel examining her !
We have pathologists, experts, consultants - the list goes on.
These are purely my thoughts as we stand if day 2 of the examination in chief.
MHO

I have had traumatic births and my first was in NICU. I struggle to remember much about each one including their birth weights. You blank it from your mind somehow.

 

[Xanadu62]

The father was not asked, nor required to have recalled the phone call until years after it happened.
There is every chance that phone calls at various times were mistaken, a call that happend closer to 10pm was erroneously thought to have taken place at 9, for example. Perfectly understandable.

As for the question of an epidural, although the pain relief wears off after around 2hrs, the after affects have been known to last for days. This is a shot of steroids directly into the spinal chord, at the very minmum it would knock a person for six.

They have the phone records of this call at 9.11pm.........

 

[Parker Knoll]

The father was not asked, nor required to have recalled the phone call until years after it happened.
There is every chance that phone calls at various times were mistaken, a call that happend closer to 10pm was erroneously thought to have taken place at 9, for example. Perfectly understandable.

As for the question of an epidural, although the pain relief wears off after around 2hrs, the after affects have been known to last for days. This is a shot of steroids into the space around the spinal chord, at the very minmum it would knock a person for six.

The prosecution have mobile phone data for that call.

 

[esther43]

This was a mother who had not long given birth and in her own words was sore. if I were to try and employ my empathic visualisation of the situation I might think a woman who would have every reason to be tired, worn out, stressed, bruised, battered and perhaps even mentally drained that that same woman would have less reason to be held to the same standards in terms of memory recollection for that period of time.

Baby E and F were 10 days old at the date of the alleged attack so I think we can all assume that the epidural and other drugs had worn off by then and mum was compos mentis.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Baby E and F were 10 days old at the date of the alleged attack so I think we can all assume that the epidural and other drugs had worn off by then and mum was compos mentis.

Amen !

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

Lest we should forget, in the words of Dr Marnerides,

'We are not discussing possibilities here, we are discussing probabilities.

'When you refer to possibilities, I am thinking for example of somebody walking in the middle of the Sahara desert found dead with a pot and head trauma.

'It is possible the pot fell from the air from a helicopter. The question is 'is it probable?' and I don't think we can say it is probable.'


'Forceful CPR' can't explain baby's liver damage, Letby trial hears

It's not the role of the jury to consider whether a pot might have fallen from the sky.

Definitely well worth remembering. A good defence will always muddy the waters. That alone should not be enough to override the logic that the jury apply, as to whether circumstances are indeed probable.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Yes.
That’s their job.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

The prosecution have mobile phone data for that call.

Yes but that record only proves a call was made. No one is disputing that the call was made, it is the all-important contents of the call that is far from being a proven fact.

JMO

 

[esther43]

I have had traumatic births and my first was in NICU. I struggle to remember much about each one including their birth weights. You blank it from your mind somehow.

I think it's common to lose memory in the 1st 24-48 hours due to shock. But a lot of women can get that memory back by talking about their experience, which is something that is more likely to happen if your baby is under threat or has died. In the latter scenario, mother's work hard at recall because sadly, it is all that they have.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Wellllllll ….. the mum said she called her husband at 9.11 pm for 4 minutes and they had the conversation that she was very uneasy. The husband corroborated the conversation in his police interviews that were read out in court.
That’s an official witness statement. That’s a legal statement of truth.
It holds the same weight legally as if he had sworn on the oath in court.
Take that as you will.

 

[Xanadu62]

Yes but that record only proves a call was made. No one is disputing that the call was made, it is the all-important contents of the call that is far from being a proven fact.

JMO

There is every chance that phone calls at various times were mistaken, a call that happend closer to 10pm was erroneously thought to have taken place at 9, for example. Perfectly understandable.

Seems like you are disputing it though. Hard to keep track of what's been said with all the accounts...

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

Wellllllll ….. the mum said she called her husband at 9.11 pm for 4 minutes and they had the conversation that she was very uneasy. The husband corroborated the conversation in his police interviews that were read out in court.
That’s an official witness statement. That’s a legal statement of truth.
It holds the same weight legally as if he had sworn on the oath in court.
Take that as you will.

Would it be fair to assume their were other phone calls surrounding the 9.11pm call though? Do we have a complete log of their calls that evening/night, or has only the one call been highlighted?

 

[katydid23]

During her second day in the witness box, Letby said: 'It felt like we walked through the door into this awful situation. That was the first time I'd met (Baby) A and his parents. It was a huge shock'.

She also rejected the mother’s assertion that she had told her to leave the unit. “That’s not something we would do,” she told Mr Myers.

Apart from the fact that the "awful situation" didn't start happening till after she started her shift. What's all this "we" stuff ?

It is kind of creepy in my opinion.

When asked if she told E's mum to leave the unit, her reply= "That’s not something we would do"

She was reportedly alone with the mother and baby at that time, so who is 'we'?

 

[Parker Knoll]

From recollection that was the only one.
I think there was a further phone call about an hour later but don’t quote me on that … it’s late !

 

[Sundial]

The part that I find difficult to get my head around, is not whether someone could have done this. I understand there are some very sick, evil people out there. Thes kinds of people would undoubtedly have no quarms with studying nursing, going to uni, focusing intently on becoming an elite nurse only to intentionally hamr babies.

I am certainly not naive enough to not want to accept that the above scenario is possible.

Where I am having trouble, is believing that this same sick, evil, twisted person would exhibit practically zero psychopathic traits.

Normally when you have a psychopath accused of murder, somehwere along the line, their character reveals something about themsleves that backs up the hypothesis that they could have behaved in the ways being suggested.

With Ms Letby, salsa dancing aside, we have nothing like this.

Yet.

We simply do not know what other points of interest may come to light (in due course). I feel we are only just scratching the surface with understanding her character and there is a lot we (the public) are not privvy to that the jury undoubtedly are. The amount of times I’ve read here “something really odd, makes no sense, bizarre etc etc” is because there is something we are not being told. We cannot know anymore about her or her character other than what has so far been reported in evidence (in the public domain) because we are not being told the full points they are hearing in court.
Jmo

 

[esther43]

Lest we should forget, in the words of Dr Marnerides,

'We are not discussing possibilities here, we are discussing probabilities.

'When you refer to possibilities, I am thinking for example of somebody walking in the middle of the Sahara desert found dead with a pot and head trauma.

'It is possible the pot fell from the air from a helicopter. The question is 'is it probable?' and I don't think we can say it is probable.'


'Forceful CPR' can't explain baby's liver damage, Letby trial hears

It's not the role of the jury to consider whether a pot might have fallen from the sky.

I think that liver damage was caused through 'velocity' as the experts suggested. Basically the act of throwing a baby down in it its cot with an amount of force could do it and the baby would not even bruise. Horrible to think about but the only plausible explanation for that liver injury to date, regrettably.

 

[Sundial]

I understood "we" as a general term of medical staff.
"We" - my colleagues and me ( a team).

JMO

They would be great but when she is being asked a direct question; did YOU… she dodges that direct question by stating something more collectively- “we” would not, “we” is not the same as did YOU write up the patients notes.
Sure any member of a team could say yes we do that every day. But that is not what is being asked. She is not answering the question by answering with “WE”.

IMO