UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[Sundial]

I heard her say the words 'competencies' and 'practice' a LOT in her
police interviews, to the point where I never want to hear those words ever again!

Ah ok thank you for clarifying.
Still, we’ve heard there wasn’t actually anything wrong with them.

 

[Tortoise]

A criminal lawyer I sometimes watch on youtube, gives a very good description of circumstantial evidence.

She describes it as if you are doing a jigsaw puzzle and every piece of circumstantial evidence is a piece of the puzzle, but you're missing a few random pieces here and there. I imagine those pieces are the actions that are hidden by the perpetrator. You have enough pieces to make out what the whole picture is without them.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Good point, Sweeper.

Although LL passed her exams, going by her age she took time to get through them. She’s 33 now, so was in her late 20s by the time she qualified as an ICU nurse. I know some people can take time to qualify, but considering how conscientious and devoted she said she was, it’s surprising she didn’t qualify sooner.

Another thing that seems strange to me is how she had her home decorated like that of a teenager - rather than a woman turned 30.

It’s also noticeable that although she enjoyed a social life with her colleagues she didn’t appear to have any real close friends. I could be wrong, and maybe she did have close friends , but there’s no mention of them - which makes one wonder if she tagged along with groups and colleagues but they never became close to her. JMO, of course, and I could be wrong, but there seems to be no mention of best friends or relationships she’s had with boyfriends. And at 30 you’ve usually had serious relationships….she’s quite a mystery.

Totally wrong. She qualified at 21 (2011) and was fronting a fund raising campaign by the age of 23. She was 25/26 at the time of the allegations.

There are loads of photos of her socialising with lots of people. She lived and worked miles away from where she grew up so it's entirely reasonable that most of er socialising was done with colleagues.

I think that you really need to read the evidence here. Although basic maths would give you her age at the relevant time.

 

[marynnu]

A criminal lawyer I sometimes watch on youtube, gives a very good description of circumstantial evidence.

She describes it as if you are doing a jigsaw puzzle and every piece of circumstantial evidence is a piece of the puzzle, but you're missing a few random pieces here and there. I imagine those pieces are the actions that are hidden by the perpetrator. You have enough pieces to make out what the whole picture is without them.

Obvious when you say it, isn't it? Great analogy.

 

[katydid23]

To add to this, the strange thing is; we have heard in evidence her competencies were fine, there was nothing wrong with them. She had passed them.
I’m sure we didn’t even hear her mention anything about her competencies in her police interview either- It wasn’t even a point (that I can recall anywhere).

So one has to question, why would it now be about her competency when we have heard (as dr choc demonstrated) she was quite capable of her role? She’s actually striking me as someone quite capable as a nurse (on top of obtaining a mortgage, fundraising and medical terms etc) and it just appears there’s only really one other option; That she wasn’t good enough to care for them, “I’m evil” and “I did this on purpose” and then consider that along with baby Es parents testimony- I can’t help but think it’s exactly what it says on the tin. (If guilty).

Must say for me, the evidence with baby E alone is quite telling.
JMO

YES, that internal conflict she seems to have is very interesting. And very revealing.

On one hand, she is very proud of the praise she gets from colleagues for her very intelligent, highly skilled demeanour when under pressure on the floor. She loves to discuss this with a few key superiors, like doc Choc, and hear about how well she performs under pressure and how calm and measured she is and how organised and capable she is. She gets that praise from many co-workers and parents of her patients. She loves it. She even repeats some of the compliments she gets to others in text convos.

And yet, she tried to tell the police that she doubted her competence and her abilities as a nurse, and it was because of that lack of self confidence, she wrote those scathing notes about being evil and killing them on purpose.

When the police questioned her further, about her notes saying she 'might have killed them, she is not sure but she might have missed something or made mistakes'---<<<she couldn't stick with that explanation.

When police asked 'what mistakes did you make?' She answered 'NONE.' What did you miss, how did you harm them?

She could not bring herself to say that she was incompetent or say she actually made any medical errors. It goes against everything in her to do so. So she changed it to ' I thought they were going to see me as incompetent. I thought they were going to blame me for missing something.'


IN SUMMARY;
---She is very proud of the praise she gets from colleagues for her competence

---And yet, she tried to tell the police that she doubted her competence and her abilities as a nurse, and that's why she wrote those confessions, because she hates herself for making mistakes

----When police asked 'what mistakes did you make?' She answered 'NONE

---So she changed it to ' I thought they were going to see me as incompetent.'

 

[katydid23]

Been discussed before; if I were in her position, and innocent, I'd be waaaaay past caring about literally anything or anyone at this point. This has been going on for seven years at this point and she's spent two and a half in prison.

Blubbing in the witness box would look utterly ridiculous and false, imo. Breaking down over questions she's had put to her repeatedly over absolutely years wouldn't result in her collapsing with grief. At least that would be the way I'd deal with it.

MOO

So did you think it was false and ridiculous when she was crying on Friday when she talked about the dying babies?

 

[Sweeper2000]

YES, that internal conflict she seems to have is very interesting. And very revealing.

On one hand, she is very proud of the praise she gets from colleagues for her very intelligent, highly skilled demeanour when under pressure on the floor. She loves to discuss this with a few key superiors, like doc Choc, and hear about how well she performs under pressure and how calm and measured she is and how organised and capable she is. She gets that praise from many co-workers and parents of her patients. She loves it. She even repeats some of the compliments she gets to others in text convos.

And yet, she tried to tell the police that she doubted her competence and her abilities as a nurse, and it was because of that lack of self confidence, she wrote those scathing notes about being evil and killing them on purpose.

When the police questioned her further, about her notes saying she 'might have killed them, she is not sure but she might have missed something or made mistakes'---<<<she couldn't stick with that explanation.

When police asked 'what mistakes did you make?' She answered 'NONE.' What did you miss, how did you harm them?

She could not bring herself to say that she was incompetent or say she actually made any medical errors. It goes against everything in her to do so. So she changed it to ' I thought they were going to see me as incompetent. I thought they were going to blame me for missing something.'


IN SUMMARY;
---She is very proud of the praise she gets from colleagues for her competence

---And yet, she tried to tell the police that she doubted her competence and her abilities as a nurse, and that's why she wrote those confessions, because she hates herself for making mistakes

----When police asked 'what mistakes did you make?' She answered 'NONE

---So she changed it to ' I thought they were going to see me as incompetent.'

The testimony suggests she doubted herself as a reaction to what the docs said. It’s reasonable, whether it’s true or not ?

 

[katydid23]

The testimony suggests she doubted herself as a reaction to what the docs said. It’s reasonable, whether it’s true or not ?

No, she also said she hated herself for being evil for making mistakes and almost or maybe killing them-----then later she said it was because of what the doctors said.

I think the discrepancy is because she wanted to explain to the police that she might have killed them, she is not sure. That would be better than being convicted for murder. But then she couldn't go through with admitting she made mistakes and was incompetent.

So now she says it is the doctors making her feel that way.

And NO, it is not reasonable to have that reaction. Way too many babies collapsed for people not to have investigated her.

It is not the doctors fault that they had to look into her connection to these tragic incidents.

 

[Sundial]

YES, that internal conflict she seems to have is very interesting. And very revealing.

On one hand, she is very proud of the praise she gets from colleagues for her very intelligent, highly skilled demeanour when under pressure on the floor. She loves to discuss this with a few key superiors, like doc Choc, and hear about how well she performs under pressure and how calm and measured she is and how organised and capable she is. She gets that praise from many co-workers and parents of her patients. She loves it. She even repeats some of the compliments she gets to others in text convos.

And yet, she tried to tell the police that she doubted her competence and her abilities as a nurse, and it was because of that lack of self confidence, she wrote those scathing notes about being evil and killing them on purpose.

When the police questioned her further, about her notes saying she 'might have killed them, she is not sure but she might have missed something or made mistakes'---<<<she couldn't stick with that explanation.

When police asked 'what mistakes did you make?' She answered 'NONE.' What did you miss, how did you harm them?

She could not bring herself to say that she was incompetent or say she actually made any medical errors. It goes against everything in her to do so. So she changed it to ' I thought they were going to see me as incompetent. I thought they were going to blame me for missing something.'


IN SUMMARY;
---She is very proud of the praise she gets from colleagues for her competence

---And yet, she tried to tell the police that she doubted her competence and her abilities as a nurse, and that's why she wrote those confessions, because she hates herself for making mistakes

----When police asked 'what mistakes did you make?' She answered 'NONE

---So she changed it to ' I thought they were going to see me as incompetent.'

Summed up perfectly.

Interestingly though when you take all that you mention above and then apply it to the points from her colleagues;
*Concerned about you
*Suggested she took a break
*Cant go in room 1 but xyz was allowed
Etc.. she seems to get somewhat snide in her reply.
On one hand she appears to take the praise and the “poor you” comments (like this ego massage- strokes of affection), but on the other seems to be quite dismissive when her colleagues suggest something she doesn’t agree with. It’s as though she craves to be told she is wonderful and a commendable nurse but on the other, the second someone suggests something she doesn’t like/agree with her behaviour is quite odd.

One minute she is competent and can spot things others can’t (she said in her police statement) and her competencies are absolutely fine. But the next she doesn’t make mistakes (and woe forbid anyone to question her), followed with I her strange explanation of “I’m evil” “I did this on purpose”

So which is it?
None of it makes much sense.
JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

No, she also said she hated herself for being evil for making mistakes and almost or maybe killing them-----then later she said it was because of what the doctors said.

I think the discrepancy is because she wanted to explain to the police that she might have killed them, she is not sure. That would be better than being convicted for murder. But then she couldn't go through with admitting she made mistakes and was incompetent.

So now she says it is the doctors making her feel that way.

And NO, it is not reasonable to have that reaction. Way too many babies collapsed for people not to have investigated her.

It is not the doctors fault that they had to look into her connection to these tragic incidents.

Where did you get that from? Has to be before the suspension otherwise it fits with it being a reaction to the suspension, for what this is worth.

 

[Parker Knoll]

It’s in her police interviews !

 

[Tortoise]

I think her reactions to being cross-examined might be quite interesting. With her meltdowns when a problem is even hinted at. Mind you, seems like she might have held it together in police interviews.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It’s in her police interviews !

As far as I have seen, all of that which came after the suspension fits with it being a reaction to the suspension and reason given for?

 

[Tortoise]

As far as I have seen, all of that which came after the suspension fits with it being a reaction to the suspension and reason given for?

What time or date are you treating as her suspension?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Well, when someone confesses, you then investigate and see if it is possible or probable, in terms of location and opportunity. In this case, it seems highly probable. JMO

That's not what I was replying to, though. The statement was that no one ever confesses to crimes they didn't commit (or words to that effect) which is manifestly untrue.

 

[Sweeper2000]

What time or date are you treating as her suspension?

Not sure of the day but was a week after baby q. Late July 2016 if my memory serves.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think her reactions to being cross-examined might be quite interesting. With her meltdowns when a problem is even hinted at. Mind you, seems like she might have held it together in police interviews.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a full on faint tbh.

She's already demonstrated how the PTSD has left her startled by noise...

At one point Letby broke off while answering a question, appearing to be startled by a noise in the courtroom.

Mr Myers noticed her hesitancy and asked whether she was able to continue. “Yeah, I’m very easily distracted,” said Letby.

Her barrister asked: “Have you always been like that?”. “No,” she replied.

Earlier in the week – the 26th of her trial – Letby told the jury she was “easily startled” by unexpected noises as a result of the post-traumatic stress disorder she has suffered since her initial arrest in July 2018.

Lucy Letby tells jury death of twin baby came as a 'complete shock'

During her second day in the witness box at Manchester Crown Court, Lucy Letby admitted the death of Baby A in 2015 affected her and came as a 'huge shock'. The trial continues.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

So did you think it was false and ridiculous when she was crying on Friday when she talked about the dying babies?

I hadn't read of it so don't know the particular circumstances. The inference is, however, that she should be literally in floods of tears every time a baby is mentioned which is silly.

As I say, if I were innocent and in her position I'd not be giving two ****** about anyone or anything other than me at this point and would likely have stopped doing so years ago.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I hadn't read of it so don't know the particular circumstances. The inference is, however, that she should be literally in floods of tears every time a baby is mentioned which is silly.

As I say, if I were innocent and in her position I'd not be giving two ****** about anyone or anything other than me at this point and would likely have stopped doing so years ago.

She wouldn’t cry if indeed she doesn’t remember the baby in question. I certainly wouldn’t expect the court room to be full of her Tears no. I also wouldn’t expect her to show no emotion either, will depend on her own recall.

 

[mummyshark]

Letby says she can recall Child E and Child F's mother being on the unit that night, until about 10pm.

So she's saying that the mother was there UNTIL 10pm. So she must have arrived before then.

A nursing note shows 'mummy was present at start of shift attending to cares. Visited again approx 2200'.

Which is it?

Also worth bearing in mind is how exhausted the mother would have been. She would have undoubtedly been sleep deprived at this point, probably in pain, possiby even in agony.
What the mother would have been going through would have likely been traumatic and psychologically devastating.

None of the above is conducive to forming crystal clear, reliable memories.

As a mother of three premature babies who spent time in NICU, I find this incredibly insulting. My eldest was born 9 years ago, I still remember the name of the midwife, the registrar who resuscitated her, the names of the NICU nurses, every medication she was given and the dosage, the times of her feeds, her birth weight, her weight at discharge, the name of the babies in the incubators next to her (from NICU, HDU and SCBU). And yes, it was traumatic and psychologically devastating, that's exactly why these details are etched on my memory - trauma makes you relive it over and over again. It's not a fleeting, inconsequential moment, it's the most important experience of a person's life. Even some of the things you want to forget, you can't.

Unless you have been through similar and can say you don't remember any of it, please don't insult the bereaved mother of a premature baby by suggesting she doesn't remember what little time she had with her baby.