UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[Tortoise]

No, of course I don't know! Nobody here knows anything.

So it's not relevant to what we know about anything in the trial then. They all (not LL) have aligning memories and there is no suggestion that they colluded or conferred or have memory bias.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Which are the events which staff, other than LL, differ over?

Baby k where dr J said the baby was sedated with morphine before the collapse so couldn’t have dislodged the tube .

 

[Anxala]

Yes. I agree this is exactly what the prosecution are doing.

Yes the consultants had suspicions, but there was also generally positive indications of her nursing work and commitment to the job. If the prosecution can say 'well actually, she wasn't really a good nurse, or commited and liked to break rules' then it tears down a pillar of the defence.

And I think it will more than likely resonate hugely with the jury who lets not forget are not medical experts

We have no idea what the make-up of the jury is though. There could be medics amongst them, expert and otherwise, but essentially and equally people of all walks of life, more than capable of understanding and processing medical-related facts that eg. us non-medical people struggle with. That's a possibility too.

I've seen this previously on the threads, the suggestion that the jury somehow might be less 'capable' and less able to process info that we, on here, seem to think we have some kind of superior upper hand on and insight into, despite them having way more detailed info to work with than we do.

It's arrogant and it's insulting to them.

 

[Tortoise]

Baby k where dr J said the baby was sedated with morphine before the collapse so couldn’t have dislodged the tube .

"He says Child K was able to move her arms and legs, but not enough to dislodge a tube.
He says his previous statement was based on a "genuine misunderstanding based on my notes"."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

He has not argued with the evidence in the case, to persist in a version of her being sedated. The claim is that baby K's tube was dislodged and she stopped breathing within minutes of the nurse leaving the nursery and Dr J says LL was standing by doing nothing to assist her.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

"He says Child K was able to move her arms and legs, but not enough to dislodge a tube.
He says his previous statement was based on a "genuine misunderstanding based on my notes"."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

He has not argued with the evidence in the case, to persist in a version of her being sedated. The claim is that baby K's tube was dislodged and she stopped breathing within minutes of the nurse leaving the nursery and Dr J says LL was standing by doing nothing to assist her.

I wasn’t suggesting that he was arguing with the evidence to continue to assert she was sedated. And I have no problem with accepting that his previous statement was for the reasons he says.

But it shows that misunderstandings can happen around the sequence of events so I don’t think it is fair for us to assume that everyone else apart from LL has perfect recall of events as they actually happened (either all these years later or indeed at the time , as demonstrated by Dr J) .

 

[notsure]

So it's not relevant to what we know about anything in the trial then. They all (not LL) have aligning memories and there is no suggestion that they colluded or conferred or have memory bias.

I think unreliable memory is very relevant to any case.

 

[JosieJo]

JMO but it wouldn't surprise me if "nice" Lucy wasn't everyone's cup of tea on the unit.
There have been quite a few examples where people have been impatient with her or dismissive of her.
I could easily see some seeing her as an arrogant attention seeking know it all who sulks if they do not get their own way.
Obviously that's just a gut feeling on my part and could be totally wrong. Even if guilty I'm not sure we would every really know as I'd imagine her colleagues will not be able to speak to the press

 

[Legal]

I might be remembering wrong but didn't the nurses that worked on the unit split into 2 groups? There was LL and JJK and today a text mentioned someone called Liz, who seemed to like each other. Sophie and Melanie don't seem to have been in their gang. I think something to this effect was mentioned by the nurse emigrating to NZ - didn't she say something on the lines of all the ones who don't fit in should go together?

 

[WaxLyrical]

I wasn’t suggesting that he was arguing with the evidence to continue to assert she was sedated. And I have no problem with accepting that his previous statement was for the reasons he says.

But it shows that misunderstandings can happen around the sequence of events so I don’t think it is fair for us to assume that everyone else apart from LL has perfect recall of events as they actually happened (either all these years later or indeed at the time , as demonstrated by Dr J) .

Wasn’t there also a disagreement about him questioning the designated nurse about the breathing tube? She said he asked her about it, and he said he didn’t discuss it with her at all?

 

[WaxLyrical]

I might be remembering wrong but didn't the nurses that worked on the unit split into 2 groups? There was LL and JJK and today a text mentioned someone called Liz, who seemed to like each other. Sophie and Melanie don't seem to have been in their gang. I think something to this effect was mentioned by the nurse emigrating to NZ - didn't she say something on the lines of all the ones who don't fit in should go together?

Yeah it was Alison Ventress saying something about others whose faces don’t fit either. She wasn’t a nurse though.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't entirely agree here. She clearly has reasons for keeping them and they are clearly of significance to her.

To be honest, even though it was grossly against the rules, I can sort of see why she might keep the very first one she ever got; it was her dream job, the thing she'd wanted since childhood and had devoted her life to. She also knew her success made her parents proud. If you exclude the rule breaking thing then I see it as not abnormal at all to keep something like that.

She definitely has something more going on with these sheets though. The FB searches and suchlike as well. I don't think they were "trophies", as such, at least not of crimes if she's guilty. It might sound bizarre but it feels more like she's documenting her life and feels a strong compulsion to do so. All of this information hoarding feels almost like an actor keeping scrips or video footage for their showreel or a stage actor keeping programs from the productions they've been in, maybe the "star" sign with their name on from their dressing room door?

It all just has a really weird vibe to it but I'm still not convinced it's directly related to the alleged crimes.

All MOO, obvs.

I dont get the notes thing. 99 of them were found which dated from her student years? Is that correct? Then the 250 found actually go back further then the five years stated. all that evidence states it’s a normal thing for her albeit against the rules. So it’s actually 150 over the five years of proper employment. I don’t think the prosecution proved anything there really except ll not having a great memory. Most of the evidence now about the handovers just points to it being normal behaviour and that they are indeed of no significance to her. The prosecution could only point to two bits of info from the handovers that are Negativ, the one reference to the black bag which really proves nothing especially not that she doesn’t care and the second being apparently the only handover. Note to have any significance ie the one from her first shift in the memento box Which I can totally see someone keeping, said it threads ago it’s probably like a concert ticket to her. The others if they are in a bad way ie folded, torn but not shredded all suggest the folder they were stored in was more or less a waste paper basket. I don’t think she is lying about them.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Death rates remained consistent at the hospital until 2015/16.

That’s not to say children weren’t being harmed though.. if guilty, I doubt she went to work and decided to jump right in to murdering a baby for the first time just minutes into her shift with baby A IMO. Although serial killers can begin suddenly by acting on impulse, it would be more likely that if guilty, she’d began by inflicting pain when frustrated, such as a pinch here and there or being rough when handling the babies. IMO it wouldn’t be a stretch to consider that she could have administered very small amounts of air or another method of harm for a period before graduating to wanting to cause more damage.

Basically what I’m saying is that harm could still have been done to babies without them having collapsed or died. If guilty and if there were earlier victims, any attempt to harm may not have been noticed at the time, the symptoms could have been quite subtle, a hand over the mouth for a few seconds could initiate a thrill without necessarily causing any obvious sign of distress that lasted long enough for anyone else to notice.

All MOO

 

[Jazmania]

Or she's not thinking rationally. She's fighting for her life after years in jail, on medication for anxiety and depression.

Medication for anxiety and depression wouldn't make you more likely to lie though, or distort your perception of reality

I dont get the notes thing. 99 of them were found which dated from her student years? Is that correct? Then the 250 found actually go back further then the five years stated. all that evidence states it’s a normal thing for her albeit against the rules. So it’s actually 150 over the five years of proper employment. I don’t think the prosecution proved anything there really except ll not having a great memory. Most of the evidence now about the handovers just points to it being normal behaviour and that they are indeed of no significance to her. The prosecution could only point to two bits of info from the handovers that are Negativ, the one reference to the black bag which really proves nothing especially not that she doesn’t care and the second being apparently the only handover. Note to have any significance ie the one from her first shift in the memento box Which I can totally see someone keeping, said it threads ago it’s probably like a concert ticket to her. The others if they are in a bad way ie folded, torn but not shredded all suggest the folder they were stored in was more or less a waste paper basket. I don’t think she is lying about them.

Saying it's a normal thing for her is neither here nor there though. If guilty it was also a normal thing for her to attack and kill babies. Does that justify it in anyway?

Aspects that point to the notes being very important to her include - that one was kept in a keepsake box. That others were kept in a box marked keep. That she transferred them between multiple houses. That one of them belonged to someone else and was retrieved from a bin.

Aspects that point to her lying include that in her police interview she at first denied taking any notes, then admitted she might have some that she would keep in a folder in the spare room. We've heard no evidence of such a folder. Then now in the stand she said she would leave them scattered around the house.she denied having a shredder she had only just acquired. Her general explanations for how she would acquire such a large amount of notes without realising make absolutely no sense.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I don't entirely agree here. She clearly has reasons for keeping them and they are clearly of significance to her.

To be honest, even though it was grossly against the rules, I can sort of see why she might keep the very first one she ever got; it was her dream job, the thing she'd wanted since childhood and had devoted her life to. She also knew her success made her parents proud. If you exclude the rule breaking thing then I see it as not abnormal at all to keep something like that.

She definitely has something more going on with these sheets though. The FB searches and suchlike as well. I don't think they were "trophies", as such, at least not of crimes if she's guilty. It might sound bizarre but it feels more like she's documenting her life and feels a strong compulsion to do so. All of this information hoarding feels almost like an actor keeping scrips or video footage for their showreel or a stage actor keeping programs from the productions they've been in, maybe the "star" sign with their name on from their dressing room door?

It all just has a really weird vibe to it but I'm still not convinced it's directly related to the alleged crimes.

All MOO, obvs.

If the job meant that much to her and was her dream job, then why risk losing it by breaking the rules so early on in her career. She’d have known that taking handover sheets home is a big no no, the rules surrounding patient confidentiality will have been fresh in her mind in 2010. It completely conflicts with the ‘nice nurse Lucy’ image she’s trying to portray. I think it relates because it’s an example of how LL believes the rules don’t apply to her IMO. She talks about how SE wasn’t qualified enough to be in room 1, how other colleagues weren’t as experienced as her and basically didn’t know what they were doing when it came to ITU babies, yet she was repeatedly going against the rules and stealing handover sheets then storing them at home.

Her credibility has flew out the window today IMO, testifying that she would never use her phone in a clinical area, then contradicting that just minutes later. She denies even owning a shredder, then claims to have ‘forgotten’ she owned a shredder, then says she brought it for shredding bank statements. I could believe in it just being compulsive behaviour had she not lied and said she forgot she had them and had she not moved house multiple times taking this paperwork with her, moving it from bag to bag, kept in a box marked keep.

She repeatedly used the words ‘insignificant’ to describe them which the evidence completely refutes and also claims to have accidentally taken them home, which again is ludicrous when you consider how many there were. Her saying they were nothing more than ‘bits of paper’ to her doesnt explain why she lied about even knowing she had them. IMO the more times she denies and lies about them, the more suspicious and relevant to the crimes it makes them sound.

Having just one in pristine condition from 2010 in a keepsake box IMO wouldn’t be as suspicious, but having a collection of 257 that she has lied about, suggests that she is hiding the truth about their significance, and given that she is now on trial suspected of murder and attempted murder, one logical conclusion that we can draw is that they were possibly trophies of some sort. JMO

All MOO

 

[Becky53]

The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 34, ‘I’ve only ever done my best.’​

In this episode Caroline and Liz explain what Lucy Letby had to say about the specific allegations relating to babies G to Q.

The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 34, ‘I’ve only ever done my best.’

www.mailplus.co.uk

 

[Becky53]

That was one of their possible theories---the other was that the nurses rehung the initial one the it was tissued---but didn't want to admit it

Still think the bag was rehung as I can’t that fathom how LL would know the line would tissue. MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Medication for anxiety and depression wouldn't make you more likely to lie though, or distort your perception of reality

Saying it's a normal thing for her is neither here nor there though. If guilty it was also a normal thing for her to attack and kill babies. Does that justify it in anyway?

Aspects that point to the notes being very important to her include - that one was kept in a keepsake box. That others were kept in a box marked keep. That she transferred them between multiple houses. That one of them belonged to someone else and was retrieved from a bin.

Aspects that point to her lying include that in her police interview she at first denied taking any notes, then admitted she might have some that she would keep in a folder in the spare room. We've heard no evidence of such a folder. Then now in the stand she said she would leave them scattered around the house.she denied having a shredder she had only just acquired. Her general explanations for how she would acquire such a large amount of notes without realising make absolutely no sense.

Depression does distort reality the same as medication for it. That’s kind of the point of it. Doesn’t make you hallucinate but does make you more positive than you would otherwise be. Otherwise seeing things in a more positive light = distortion. an example of what depression can do, can make a very very Negative mountain of what’s actually a very slightly negative molehill.

ive said why I think someone could store them and move them from house to house without really properly understanding, tatfits with normal behaviour for her regardless of just how wrong it is.

i really don’t think the prosecution have proven anything with them. They pointed at two single and isolated examples of something and tried to weigh it against the rest of the evidence, 99% of it. The prosecution haven’t proven anything about the one they said was retrieved from the bin. Indeed they pointed at the example in the memento box as an example of a trophy but then pointed to the rest of them being folded rather than pristine. Suggesting they are not important to her. If they all had of been in the rose box I could understand. I will wait to hear more on their location as I still can’t believe it Hasnt been mentioned where they were all found. I still think the folder is a viable route.

I think the evidence points to her not really attaching any significance to them hence why they were not destroyed even when it’s a good idea after the redeployment And why they were found at all, said that since the start along with the “not good enough“ note. It’s presence indicates it wasn’t something she thought she should be worried about.

 

[Dotta]

I'm slowly wading through all today's posts.

And the image of her skulking in the ward at night while not on shift gives me real creeps.

How did Prosecution call her presence in Opening Speech?

PS
Mr Nick J KC at his best yesterday and today!
Bravo!!!

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

If the job meant that much to her and was her dream job, then why risk losing it by breaking the rules so early on in her career. She’d have known that taking handover sheets home is a big no no, the rules surrounding patient confidentiality will have been fresh in her mind in 2010. It completely conflicts with the ‘nice nurse Lucy’ image she’s trying to portray. I think it relates because it’s an example of how LL believes the rules don’t apply to her IMO. She talks about how SE wasn’t qualified enough to be in room 1, how other colleagues weren’t as experienced as her and basically didn’t know what they were doing when it came to ITU babies, yet she was repeatedly going against the rules and stealing handover sheets then storing them at home.

Her credibility has flew out the window today IMO, testifying that she would never use her phone in a clinical area, then contradicting that just minutes later. She denies even owning a shredder, then claims to have ‘forgotten’ she owned a shredder, then says she brought it for shredding bank statements. I could believe in it just being compulsive behaviour had she not lied and said she forgot she had them and had she not moved house multiple times taking this paperwork with her, moving it from bag to bag, kept in a box marked keep.

She repeatedly used the words ‘insignificant’ to describe them which the evidence completely refutes and also claims to have accidentally taken them home, which again is ludicrous when you consider how many there were. Her saying they were nothing more than ‘bits of paper’ to her doesnt explain why she lied about even knowing she had them. IMO the more times she denies and lies about them, the more suspicious and relevant to the crimes it makes them sound.

Having just one in pristine condition from 2010 in a keepsake box IMO wouldn’t be as suspicious, but having a collection of 257 that she has lied about, suggests that she is hiding the truth about their significance, and given that she is now on trial suspected of murder and attempted murder, one logical conclusion that we can draw is that they were possibly trophies of some sort. JMO

All MOO

I don’t think we can assume that she has paid enough attention to them for it to register that it’s a bad thing and they need to be disposed of. If it was just a habit given no more than a passing thought then that’s what it was.

I don’t know why people think her saying something that isnt factually true is evidence of her lying, she might simply be saying the truth as she remembers it hence is mistaken but not lying. Same as dr j and the morphine fiasco. Or the mum saying she saw ll hovering but turned out ll was miles away. Both are prominent examples of how unreliable memory can be I actually think that’s the human mind filling in the blanks in retrospect. A known thing.

I also think it’s true that apparently if 99 relate to her time as a student for two years then the remaining 150 spread over five years is actually a improvement but yes not near the mark Lucy letby.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm slowly wading through all today's posts.

And the image of her skulking in the ward at night while not on shift gives me real creeps.

How did Prosecution call her presence in Opening Speech?

PS
Mr Nick J KC at his best yesterday and today!
Bravo!!!

JMO

She wasn’t skulking Dotta she was lurking.