UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[ColourPurple]

Didn't some of the very early press reports refer to LL being part of the "geeky" clique, the ones who weren't mad on constantly getting hammered every weekend and suchlike?

Although that doesn't really chime with holidays in Ibiza, tbh.

I think there was one boyfriend of a friend who said something about her being a bit awkward or something. But there are quite a few pics of her enjoying a drink and some of her texts messages suggest the same, as does the pic in her house with a quote about Prosecco. So no, IMO, I think she likes a drink (And nothing wrong with that lol )

 

[Tortoise]

7:50am

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, continues today (Friday, May 19).
We will be bringing you live updates throughout the day, in what is the 28th week of the trial before a jury.

9:08am

Yesterday, jurors received an answer to their question as to when the trial would be over.
The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, said a precise answer could not be given, as that partly depended on how long their deliberations would be when they go out to consider the verdicts, but he said the latest expected date would be the end of July.
He added he was hopeful it would be concluded sooner than that.
The information would be relayed to the respective jurors' employers informing them of this.

9:16am

Two round-up stories from yesterday:
Lucy Letby denies photographing sympathy card ‘to get thrill’: Lucy Letby denies photographing sympathy card ‘to get thrill’
‘Gang of four’ consultants pinned baby deaths on me: Letby: ‘Gang of four’ consultants pinned baby deaths on me
The court also heard Lucy Letby agree with prosecutor Nicholas Johnson KC that two babies had been 'poisoned' with insulin on the neonatal unit - Child E and Child L. She denies those babies were targeted and denies that she was the one who poisoned them.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

Interesting point actually, it was mentioned yesterday (I think it was JJK still then too), where ll said in text something along the lines of no-one could understand/knew the baby that died or how she was feeling etc. JJK appeared abrupt at this saying something like “bit unfair, we’ve all been there”, her response was quite short but I do quite agree with this.
JMO

Yeah JJK said it was a bit "mean"

 

[JosieJo]

So is it possible that LL had no real wish to hurt babies and/or their parents, ie that was not her motivation? And that her actions may have been (almost) entirely due to jealousy of other nurses who were getting the "limelight" at the hospital, when she thought it should be hers. So she made sure she got the limelight again.

Yes I wondered about that last night ..especially as she cried when she was accused of "enjoying" the deaths

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Yes, the defense can try and say that another rogue nurse was the real culprit. But I don't think the jury will accept that easily because they will have already heard the defendant in direct and cross, testifying about each one of the 17 babies and 22 charges.

And there are so many anecdotal moments that are red flags, showing LL to be somehow connected. So many times that she was standing by the cot, or the first one to call for help or the last one known to give meds, right before the collapse.

There just is not room for some other rogue killer to take all the attention from LL. Too many odd coincidences that will prevent that from being a believable option, imo.

And I totally agree with you on the side note---that the pros should have put forth the scenario of the original TPN bag being rehung. They did kind of allude to it previously but not strongly enough, imo. JMO

I agree with you that if we were talking about the 22 charges (as in all of those she is charged with), the argument that there are too many coincidences for it to be someone else is strong.

But the problem (which I have thought has existed all along) is that there aren’t 22 strong charges . Some of the charges are very weak and I think in some of those cases, the prosecution hasn’t been convincing that anything criminal happened at all to the babies, let alone that it was LL that did it.

So once you knock out the weaker cases, the number of coincidences that LL is involved in is smaller and the picture (and whole analysis potentially looks different).

But I actually think that the prosecution may have messed up in bringing so many charges because I think that the consequence of bringing some of the weak charges to court has been to introduce legitimate doubt which spills over into the other charges and potentially into the strong charges, and thereby jeopardises the chances of getting a conviction even on the strong charges.

I think if the prosecution had just charged the strong cases, they would be in a much stronger position than they are now and I think they would still have a substantial enough number of “coincidences” to make it difficult (as you say) for a jury to conclude that someone else is responsible.

I think there are about 10 cases where the evidence the prosecution has put forward is strong, and in those cases, the defence hasn’t really been able to massively disturb the thrust of the prosecution’s case. In my opinion, 10 cases would have been a sufficiently high number to provide the overwhelming impression that it could not be someone else guilty of the charges (assuming the medical evidence stacks up).

 

[marynnu]

Yeah JJK said it was a bit "mean"

Could I please ask where this comment by JJK was? I can't see it!

 

[katydid23]

Interesting point actually, it was mentioned yesterday (I think it was JJK still then too), where ll said in text something along the lines of no-one could understand/knew the baby that died or how she was feeling etc. JJK appeared abrupt at this saying something like “bit unfair, we’ve all been there”, her response was quite short but I do quite agree with this.
JMO

Also, the note that LL wrote to babies O and P, saying something like " If no-one else thinks of you on your day, I always willl..."

How did the parents feel hearing that read out in court? It is like LL was disrespecting and discounting them, as if only LL would be grieving them?

 

[ColourPurple]

So is it possible that LL had no real wish to hurt babies and/or their parents, ie that was not her motivation? And that her actions may have been (almost) entirely due to jealousy of other nurses who were getting the "limelight" at the hospital, when she thought it should be hers. So she made sure she got the limelight again.

If guilty, I think there could be many individual reasons but pretty much all of them would involve her then seeing the babies as mere tools that she could use to meet whatever need she had at the time. But, again, if guilty, for someone to be able to continually attack and kill babies, and to do so in such painful ways, presumably they actually enjoy the act of killing and hurting them too. JMO. If guilty!

 

[JosieJo]

I've read on social media that the Court is only sitting 2 days next week has anyone seen any confirmation of this anywhere?

 

[ColourPurple]

Could I please ask where this comment by JJK was? I can't see it!

It was reported yesterday. It might have been in the Sky updates as I was doing them yesterday. I'll have a quick search. See if I can find it.

 

[katydid23]

Could I please ask where this comment by JJK was? I can't see it!

Defence Case continued Thursday 18th May 2023 -

Lucy Letby's CROSS-EXAMINATION

CHILD C


Mr Johnson moves on to the shift in which Letby was present. A shift rota is shown to the court, showing Letby was looking after two babies that night on June 13. She was in nursery room 3, with Child C in room 1 that night.
Mr Johnson says this was another shift when Letby had "migrated" to room 1.
Letby: "Yes, in response to [Child C's] care needs." She says she has no recollection of going to see Child C prior to his collapse.
Letby says she was unhappy at being in room 3 for that shift - as opposed to room 1 - but that was the decision of the prior shift leader.
Letby's nursing colleague had said Letby's designated baby in room 3 needed attention, after Letby had asked if she could be redeployed to room 1 that night.
Letby: "Yes, [they] did need attention and I gave [them] attention."
Letby had sent a message to Jennifer Jones-Key: "I just keep thinking about Mon. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it but [colleague] said no x"
JJK: "I agree with her don't think it will help. You need a break from full on ITU. You have to let it go or it will eat you up i know not easy and will take time x"
LL: "Not the vented baby necessarily. I just feel I need to be in 1 to get the image out of my head, Mel has said the same and [colleague] let her go. Being in 3 is eating me up, all I can see is him in 1"
"It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel X"
JJK: "Well it's up to you but don't think it's going to help. It sounds very odd and I would be complete opposite. Can understand [colleague] she trying to look after you all"
LL: "Well that's how I feel, from when I've experienced it at women's I've needed to go straight back and have a sick baby otherwise the image of the one you lost never goes. Why send Mel in if she's trying to look after us, She was in bits over it. X
"Don't expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I've dealt with it before, I've voiced that so can't do anymore but people should respect that X"
JJK: "Ok x
JJK: "I think They do respect it but also trying to help you. Why don't you go in one for a bit. X"
LL: "Yeah I've done couple of meds in 1. I'll be fine X"
JJK: "It didn't sound like you would be? Sorry was eating my tea x"
LL: ...Forget i said anything, I'll be fine,It's part of the job just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight X"
JJK: "...I'm not going to forget but just think your way to hard on yourself. It is part of the job but the worst part but I do believe it makes us stronger people."
LL: "Unfortunately I've seen my fair share at the women's but you are supported differently & here it's like people want to tell you how to think/Feel. Anyway. Onwards & upwards. Just shame i'm on with Mel & [colleague].Sophie in 1 so haven't got her to talk to either."

JJK: "Work is work.
A lot of the girls say women's don't support and tell them to get on with it. I think they don't mean to tell you thou and were over caring sometimes
Yeah that's not good but you got Liz x"
LL: "Women's can be awful but I learnt hard way that you have to speak up to get support. I lost a baby one day.and few hours later was given another dying baby just born in the same cot space. Girls there said it was important to overcome the image. It was awful but by.end of day i realised they were right. It's just different here X
"Anyway, forget it. I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself. You get some sleep X"
Letby accepts there were two babies in room 1, but does not accept she was specifically wanting to look after Child C.
Letby tells the court: "It wasn't about me wanting to get my own way."
Letby accepts she was upset, "just generally", that her feeings weren't being considered by a colleague and Melanie Taylor.
Mr Johnson says if this was the Melanie Taylor who Letby had said "potentially" caused a child's death. Letby: "Potentially, yes."
JJK: "That's a bit mean isn't it. Don't have to know him to understand we've all been there. Yep off to bed now x"
LL: "I don't mean it like that, just that only those who saw him know what image i have in my head X
"Forget it. Im obviously making more of it than I should X"

Letby tells the court she had hoped Jennifer Jones-Key would have been more understanding to how she was feeling, and was frustrated, and the conversation was not going anywhere, so she wanted to "leave the conversation".

3:58pm

Letby says colleague Sophie Ellis was the least experienced member of staff on that shift and "did not have the skills for the job" of looking after small, premature babies in room 1.
"I did not think she was qualified for the job...She did not have the skills for the premature babies [in room 1]."
She denies that Sophie Ellis did anything to cause Child C's collapse.
Mr Johnson: "She had something you wanted?"
Letby: "No."

Chester Standard - Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

 

[Tortoise]

Could I please ask where this comment by JJK was? I can't see it!

LL: "Anyway, forget it. I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself. You get some sleep X"
JJK: "That's a bit mean isn't it. Don't have to know him to understand we've all been there. Yep off to bed now x"
LL: "I don't mean it like that, just that only those who saw him know what image i have in my head X
"Forget it. Im obviously making more of it than I should X"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

 

[katydid23]

I agree with you that if we were talking about the 22 charges (as in all of those she is charged with), the argument that there are too many coincidences for it to be someone else is strong.

But the problem (which I have thought has existed all along) is that there aren’t 22 strong charges . Some of the charges are very weak and I think in some of those cases, the prosecution hasn’t been convincing that anything criminal happened at all to the babies, let alone that it was LL that did it.

So once you knock out the weaker cases, the number of coincidences that LL is involved in is smaller and the picture (and whole analysis potentially looks different).

But I actually think that the prosecution may have messed up in bringing so many charges because I think that the consequence of bringing some of the weak charges to court has been to introduce legitimate doubt which spills over into the other charges and potentially into the strong charges, and thereby jeopardises the chances of getting a conviction even on the strong charges.

I think if the prosecution had just charged the strong cases, they would be in a much stronger position than they are now and I think they would still have a substantial enough number of “coincidences” to make it difficult (as you say) for a jury to conclude that someone else is responsible.

I think there are about 10 cases where the evidence the prosecution has put forward is strong, and in those cases, the defence hasn’t really been able to massively disturb the thrust of the prosecution’s case. In my opinion, 10 cases would have been a sufficiently high number to provide the overwhelming impression that it could not be someone else guilty of the charges (assuming the medical evidence stacks up).

Which cases do you think are too weak to have been charged? I am sincerely curious.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Yes to me, if guilty , this is the case that perfectly fits the "I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough" line. ie You think I'm not good enough to be in room 1? Well we'll see about that!

Not only had she not been allowed to go in room 1 but somebody she considered less experienced than her had been allowed to go in there instead. Then next thing you know, literally minutes later that nurse's baby has collapsed while only LL was in the room(according to Sophie Ellis).

JMO, if guilty

Yes, this could be a reasonable interpretation of that note, and would include the whole sentence: I.e. I wasn’t good enough to care for them. IMO, if guilty.

 

[katydid23]

So is it possible that LL had no real wish to hurt babies and/or their parents, ie that was not her motivation? And that her actions may have been (almost) entirely due to jealousy of other nurses who were getting the "limelight" at the hospital, when she thought it should be hers. So she made sure she got the limelight again.

I think it might have been a little of both.

I think some of her motivation was spurred on by compulsion and intense urge for attention and for being seen as a martyr and a victim and even a hero. [kind of munchausen by proxy type syndrome?]

But also she had some anger and jealousy and acted out impulsively at times, IMO.

 

[ColourPurple]

Could I please ask where this comment by JJK was? I can't see it!

Letby had sent a message to Jennifer Jones-Key: "I just keep thinking about Mon. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it but [colleague] said no x"

JJK: "I agree with her don't think it will help. You need a break from full on ITU. You have to let it go or it will eat you up i know not easy and will take time x"

LL: "Not the vented baby necessarily. I just feel I need to be in 1 to get the image out of my head, Mel has said the same and [colleague] let her go. Being in 3 is eating me up, all I can see is him in 1"
"It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel X"

JJK: "Well it's up to you but don't think it's going to help. It sounds very odd and I would be complete opposite. Can understand [colleague] she trying to look after you all"

LL: "Well that's how I feel, from when I've experienced it at women's I've needed to go straight back and have a sick baby otherwise the image of the one you lost never goes. Why send Mel in if she's trying to look after us, She was in bits over it. X
"Don't expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I've dealt with it before, I've voiced that so can't do anymore but people should respect that X"

JJK: "Ok x

JJK: "I think They do respect it but also trying to help you. Why don't you go in one for a bit. X"

LL: "Yeah I've done couple of meds in 1. I'll be fine X"

JJK: "It didn't sound like you would be? Sorry was eating my tea x"

LL: ...Forget i said anything, I'll be fine,It's part of the job just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight X"

JJK: "...I'm not going to forget but just think your way to hard on yourself. It is part of the job but the worst part but I do believe it makes us stronger people."

LL: "Unfortunately I've seen my fair share at the women's but you are supported differently & here it's like people want to tell you how to think/Feel. Anyway. Onwards & upwards. Just shame i'm on with Mel & [colleague].Sophie in 1 so haven't got her to talk to either."

JJK: "Work is work.
A lot of the girls say women's don't support and tell them to get on with it. I think they don't mean to tell you thou and were over caring sometimes
Yeah that's not good but you got Liz x"

LL: "Women's can be awful but I learnt hard way that you have to speak up to get support. I lost a baby one day.and few hours later was given another dying baby just born in the same cot space. Girls there said it was important to overcome the image. It was awful but by.end of day i realised they were right. It's just different here X
"Anyway, forget it. I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself. You get some sleep X"

Letby accepts there were two babies in room 1, but does not accept she was specifically wanting to look after Child C.

Letby tells the court: "It wasn't about me wanting to get my own way."
Letby accepts she was upset, "just generally", that her feeings weren't being considered by a colleague and Melanie Taylor.

Mr Johnson says if this was the Melanie Taylor who Letby had said "potentially" caused a child's death. Letby: "Potentially, yes."

JJK: "That's a bit mean isn't it. Don't have to know him to understand we've all been there. Yep off to bed now x"

LL: "I don't mean it like that, just that only those who saw him know what image i have in my head X
"Forget it. Im obviously making more of it than I should X"

Letby tells the court she had hoped Jennifer Jones-Key would have been more understanding to how she was feeling, and was frustrated, and the conversation was not going anywhere, so she wanted to "leave the conversation".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Cluedoneit]

If guilty, I think there could be many individual reasons but pretty much all of them would involve her then seeing the babies as mere tools that she could use to meet whatever need she had at the time. But, again, if guilty, for someone to be able to continually attack and kill babies, and to do so in such painful ways, presumably they actually enjoy the act of killing and hurting them too. JMO. If guilty!

I said something similar last night, I think her motivation for each attack is different each time. I watched a Korean Zombie series last week in which a girl killed a boy just to be proven right, and I think that was her motivation for Baby C ‘ see what happens when you don’t put me in room 1’ whereas others might actually be a bit of a celebration for her house move, or because she wanted Dr Choc to find her indispensable. Obviously this is only if guilty and I’m not a mind reader, once this trial is over we might find something about her or her family that makes this all makes sense guilty or innocent.

 

[marynnu]

Thanks to everyone who posted re. JJK's comments. Much appreciated.

 

[JosieJo]

I think it might have been a little of both.

I think some of her motivation was spurred on by compulsion and intense urge for attention and for being seen as a martyr and a victim and even a hero. [kind of munchausen by proxy type syndrome?]

But also she had some anger and jealousy and acted out impulsively at times, IMO.

Totally agree ..I think her emotions and needs could be the catalyst

 

[ColourPurple]

Also, the note that LL wrote to babies O and P, saying something like " If no-one else thinks of you on your day, I always willl..."

How did the parents feel hearing that read out in court? It is like LL was disrespecting and discounting them, as if only LL would be grieving them?

That was the part of that note that stuck with me too. Innocent or guilty, how bloody dare she assume that their parents wouldn't think about and miss them every single day. I think I said at the time, these parents had waited months to see their babies, loved them, saw them moving around on scans, felt them kicking, made plans for them, picked names for them etc etc. The fact that she could she even think that she, a nurse who looked after them for a couple of shifts, could be the only one to care or think about them, shows some serious disordered thinking!

JMO