UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[marynnu]

Child A had passed a couple of weeks earlier---why would mum be calling the clinic that night?

To ask after Baby B I suppose?

 

[Popcorn80]

This has probably been the most challenging week for LL, guilty or not. She must be under close monitoring incase of suicide.

 

[katydid23]

Emotional expression is considered a healthy form of emotional regulation. Thus, it is socially damaging to deem that attention seeking. If LL was not so capable of expressing herself .. I doubt she would still be here today with everything she has experienced in recent years.

Is texting co-workers to talk about other co-workers behind their backs considered a healthy form of self expression?

 

[katydid23]

To ask after Baby B I suppose?

I didn't remember that baby B was still on the unit.

 

[katydid23]

I wonder whether the jury would be instructed to disregard all of her testimony if she didn’t allow the cross examination to be concluded?

Would they be able to completely disregard it? I'm not sure I would.

 

[marynnu]

I didn't remember that baby B was still on the unit.

No wonder, this is so complex I can barely remember where I live.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I’m not getting angry vibes from her at all. I totally get ur angle but I just can’t put it that way myself. I think people on here are generally accurate, would be the after affect that she’s getting something from. I don’t think if she is guilty the reward was in the act itself. Did seem very caught up in it but at the same time seemingly moved on quite quickly To the point of not remembering even with prompting. Could be effective coping mechanisms but could be something more nasty. I think there is scope for what others have suggested as well, maybe it’s some really strange death fixation Or some aspect of it. The last ones a guess with very scant evidence for but there may be some. For example when she kept going back into the room, weird to say but could be some voyeuristic element. all if guilty and imo.

There’s definitely many issues to unpack with LL. It’s strange because it almost feels like, if guilty, then her motivation was never the same, there seems to have been multiple motives for different babies, if guilty. I could spend literally days trying to go through possible reasons for why, if guilty, she has done this.

She is obviously very socially awkward. Her texts and behaviours show that, she seems to be trying to think of ‘what you should say’ in certain situations. Then others she says really inappropriate things like when she’s had 2 babies in her care die in a 24 hour period and she texts ‘I want to be in Ibiza’. Or when she talks about an element of fate when she’s discussing babies who have died suddenly. She will go from ‘wanting to cry’ and seemingly struggling to cope with the deaths that are happening all around her. Yet in the next breath she’s saying things like ‘it happens.. must carry on’.

That’s without the much discussed handover sheet collection and all the conflicting statements she’s made whilst on the stand and we are only on baby D. I can’t fathom why she thought it would be a good idea to take the stand, the only thing I can think of is that she has put this act on for so long and never been held accountable for anything. I could imagine her parents have pacified her and never made her take responsibility for everything, but that’s a whole other discussion for another day.

She absolutely frazzles my brain, my own thoughts become incoherent when trying to put into words how I feel about her behaviour.

 

[katydid23]

Did she say something today that she thinks ruined her credibility perhaps?

Johnson had told her what he was going to be asking about---which was if she had ever falsified her notes:

Letby denies falsifying paperwork​

The court sees Lucy Letby's writing recorded on nursing records for a different baby, at the time that baby D collapsed.
Nick Johnson KC asks: "Were you really doing that as baby D was collapsing?"
Letby says: "I can’t give a definitive time."
Johnson continues: "Or have you tried to make the paperwork look like you were doing something else at the time of baby D’s collapse?"
Letby denies this, saying: "No, I’ve not falsified any paperwork."
Johnson asks for clarification: "Ever?"
She says "no", to which Johnson replies: "Well, we’ll come to that."
The prosecutor then says: "Baby D died because you injected her with air, didn't you?" Letby again says: "No."
Johnson adds: "Did you think that the paperwork wouldn’t tie you to baby D at the time of her collapse?"
Letby replies that she was looking after other babies too.


I wonder if she was just not ready to face this next barrage of questions about falsifying paperwork.

 

[Dotta]

Would they be able to completely disregard it? I'm not sure I would.

Why should the Jury disregard all of her testimony during cross examination (however short it has been so far)?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Nor it seems fair.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

I wonder what "names" she is calling Mr Nick J KC right now?

"Ba...ds" were reserved for "Gang of 4".

But maybe I wouldn't like to know.

JMO

 

[esther43]

Speaking from experience on both sides of this situation (as bereaved parent, and as nurse assisting bereaved parents), it should be entirely the parent's choice. The checklist should be available to be sure that all the same things are offered to families, to make things equitable and consistent, but it would be inappropriate to follow it rigidly without respect to differences between families. The appropriateness depends on things being handled sensitively and respectfully towards the family. In some cases where a death is anticipated, some parents find it meaningful to take footprints and handprints themselves, or have the nurse take the prints, from their living baby, just as you would for any newborn. The nurse will be their assistant as they do these things, steadying the baby's hand or foot, getting the paper and ink, providing bathing supplies, and so forth. In other cases, it will be done after death, again, sometimes by the parents themselves, if that is what they prefer, or sometimes by a nurse. It is a best practice not to take anything away from the parents that they might want to do themselves. The nurse should fade into the background and appear only when something is needed.

With all that said, I don't think there's any evidence that if LL was taking footprints or making a memory box before the baby had died, that it was out of respect for the parent's wishes.

Hey, it's rough that you went through this too. I'm sorry to hear it
This trial must be a double whammy for you, with nursing and bereavement background.
I can not even imagine the range of perspectives you go through. I think I'd agree with you on the baby box, headline sensationalism. If a baby is going through palative care,there are no hard and fast rules about what has to be done when.if the whole idea is to give the parent control, then quite likely they will be introduced to the idea of the baby box ahead of the death, where death is inevitable that is. I gather with child C all a bit more sudden though.
The idea that the prosecution is presenting is that letby wanted to be present and speed things up.
The former idea of wanting to be present wouldn't be so sinister if you knew the family and had a relationship with them. Alot of us want to support patients we have come to care about. Empathetic people are often magnets to people and situations that need them. A part of that is humanity but was this humanity gone too far

 

[esther43]

I wonder what "names" she is calling Mr Nick J KC right now?

"Ba...ds" were reserved for "Gang of 4".

But maybe I wouldn't like to know.

JMO

Geez. Dotta if she does anything to compromise your crush on Nick Johnson KC then the girl is going to have a lot to answer to! ;-)

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Is texting co-workers to talk about other co-workers behind their backs considered a healthy form of self expression?

That is not the impression I got from reading the texts in evidence, on the contrary…I noted colleagues would be the ones mentioning other colleagues.

Whilst, LL was specifically stating that from her lived experiences being exposed to a trigger (e.g., returning to room-1) following a trauma (e.g.,witnessing the loss of a baby) - helped her to cope better and re adapt to that environment again.

This is not an uncommon strategy used to cope with psychological triggers (e.g., phobias, panic disorders or PTSD etc.) - Notwithstanding, I have never read about it being applied in this context.

However, perhaps she was conditioned to consider it the best approach, from her training in Liverpool; she referred to this in a previous statement.

ETA- typos

 

[Dotta]

Geez. Dotta if she does anything to compromise your crush on Nick Johnson KC then the girl is going to have a lot to answer to! ;-)

"Admiration" is the right word

 

[esther43]

"Admiration" is the right word

Oh come on, let's not pretend that you weren't overcome by his strapping demeanour in the artist's portrait earlier!

 

[Tortoise]

I suspect being in control and in a position of power would be another central element to these alleged murders/attempted murders. JMO

She could be exercising her power and control, by withdrawing from cross-examination, on impulse. Feeling she had no control over where the questioning was going.

She had no control over whether doc choc was screened, and seemingly impulsively disrupted the court proceedings.


Police interview in her evidence in chief -

Mr Myers refers to police interviews with Letby, in which she said she did not recall Child D.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, May 5 - defence continues


The prosecutor pointed out that she remembers baby D now but didn't in 2018, highlighting her exercising control over answering police questions at that time -

Asked if the nurse was mistaken about what she saw, Letby says: "No."
She says she does recall the particular rash.

"Did you take the decision to say 'No I didn't remember her' to avoid answering questions?" Mr Johnson asks.
Letby says she tried to be as cooperative as possible with the police.
[...]
Mr Johnson tries to continue with questioning but Letby requests a break.

Lucy Letby murder trial latest: Questioning ends early - after 'baby killer' nurse accused of 'faking hospital notes' for alibi

 

[Dotta]

Oh come on, let's not pretend that you weren't overcome by his strapping demeanour in the artist's portrait earlier!

I don't think the artist did him justice!
Hahaha

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think the artist did him justice!
Hahaha

The jury is out of that.

 

[katydid23]

Did a nurse not get an apology from him (that he himself doesn’t recall)

Yes, but apparently the other nurse heard the story from LL. It was LL that 'found' the baby on the trolley and moved him to the cot. [according to LL] So the other nurse just heard this from LL.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Correct. We only have Letbys word on that …. For what it’s worth.