UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[WaxLyrical]

yes it's in the Chester Standard updates.

Ahh so it is, she changed it immediately, before he questioned her about what she meant by ‘for’. That’s pretty significant I feel.

 

[JosieJo]

I think there is a difference between having certain rehearsed statements in your head which you reel off when prompted “such as walk into a situation” and having the intellectual fluidity to enable you to respond to questions which you might not have thought were going to be asked or are not asked in the way you had expected.

She does not strike me in the slightest as being articulate. I think that saying she “ knew what she was looking for” makes perfect sense in that it means that as a more experienced practitioner, she knows what to look for in terms of early signs of something being wrong with a baby, such as paleness. But she was clumsy in my opinion because her answers are often somewhat incomplete and imprecise, which creates these opportunities for different meanings to be attached to what she is saying. So in the example, we are talking about, if she had answered more completely along the lines of “ I knew what I was looking for in terms of early signs of babies in medical distress” then it would not be suspicious and it would not have created a memorable moment in the trial, which is now being viewed as a “gotcha” moment or a Freudian slip.

But it’s only once the words are out of her mouth and the follow-up question comes from NJ that she realises that the words can be misconstrued.

Thing is ...at that time she wasn't looking "for" anything...she was casually chatting and glanced over.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm wondering if it's Mel Taylor. I've noticed Sky don't seem to be up with whether some of the nurses can be named or not in their reporting, not using the name Ashleigh in their reporting about the doorway incident.

I think he could be referring to LL's text saying Mel didn't want to talk with her about baby A's death, on the night of baby C's death.

JMO

I’ll have a look at the present sheet by the prosecution. u think he’s exaggerating then? Thought it might have been ongoing and Mary is correct, too much bad blood makes mistakes often needlessly

 

[JosieJo]

For some reason she is being treated with kid gloves ..every time it gets difficult she seems to be allowed a break or allowed to "not answer"

 

[WaxLyrical]

Thing is ...at that time she wasn't looking "for" anything...she was casually chatting and glanced over.

I wouldn’t even feel her saying ‘for’ would be out of the ordinary. Eg I’m used to working nights, these babies are always under canopies, I know what I’m looking for.

But the fact she immediately reacted and changed it as though she knew she’d slipped up. Hmm. Very interesting.

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm not seeing any kid gloves here, just a judge aware of how stressful her time on the stand is and that she's no use to anyone if she becomes overwhelmed by the intensity of the questioning and turns into a gibbering mess.

Seems just like general care for the wellbeing of a defendant under enormous pressure. Innocent or guilty, her wellbeing has to come first.

In any case, what we might regard as short hours may feel like days to her. In addition to which, she's living it every hour away from the court.

BIB That's pretty much what I was saying.

To handle or treat something with kid gloves is to do so with special consideration or in a tactful manner, often due to a perceived sensitivity.

Why Do We Handle Something 'With Kid Gloves?'

No children were harmed in the making of this article

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Tortoise]

I’ll have a look at the present sheet by the prosecution. u think he’s exaggerating then? Thought it might have been ongoing and Mary is correct, too much bad blood makes mistakes often needlessly

Well, I'm waiting to hear the evidence that they had fallen out. So maybe not an exaggeration, time will tell...

 

[JosieJo]

As far as I’m concerned ‘Don't you think Child I looks pale?’ Is a weird thing to say in itself.

If you’re the more senior nurse, and you think a baby looks pale, you don’t stand in the doorway and say to your junior “don’t you think that baby looks pale?” You go and check the baby, or you say “Ashleigh, baby looks very pale, was she this pale at the last obvservation?” Or “has she been this pale for a while?”

I just think it’s the most bizarre thing to say, almost like you’re wanting the junior nurse to be the one to actually notice, or be the first “on the scene” or similar.

This is exactly it for me ...as a Nurse you wouldn't say "do you think baby looks pale"
That's just a way of asking someone to check ...someone who is already making up milk.
What would happen is you go nearer and check ..
No way would you stand in the doorway and say that

 

[Anxala]

BIB That's pretty much what I was saying.

To handle or treat something with kid gloves is to do so with special consideration or in a tactful manner, often due to a perceived sensitivity.

Why Do We Handle Something 'With Kid Gloves?'

No children were harmed in the making of this article

www.merriam-webster.com

But you also said "in a way I've not seen before in a trial" which implies that you think there's something unusual going on there when there clearly, imo, isn't.

 

[katydid23]

I think it’s agreed as factual evidence by both her own defence and the prosecution. Not sure whether *she* would have agreed to it, but legal discussions between both prosecution and defence appear to agree to the evidence- except she seemingly doesn’t.

At least that’s how it appears to me.
JMO

But I don't think her defense team can legally 'agree' with things unless she also agrees. They are her representatives and it all goes through her, supposedly.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

NJ: "Do you agree it is accurate?"

LL: "No...there would be more light visible. The cot would potentially be nearer to the light.

LL: "I think it was nearer to the workbench than that."

Mr Johnson asks how big Child I's hands would be - Letby says they would be small.

Mr Johnson says Child I would be almost entirely obscured.

LL: "Just her hands and her face."

NJ: "Which would be covered by that tentlike structure."

LL: "Not entirely no."

Mr Johnson asks how Letby could spot something Ashleigh Hudson could not, as mentioned from her police interview.

LL: "I had more experience so I knew what I was looking for - at."

NJ: "What do you mean looking 'for'?"

LL: "I don't mean it like that - I'm finding it hard to concentrate."

Don’t mean it like what Lucy? NJ didn’t suggest she meant anything by ‘I knew what I was looking for’ Did she slip up and tell NJ that she was watching baby I looking for the symptoms of collapse…

She quickly corrected ‘for’ to ‘at’, but the Freudian slip had already been made IMO

Suddenly she can’t concentrate and court adjourns til Tuesday. But she hasn’t wriggled out of that one…

MOO

 

[JosieJo]

But you also said "in a way I've not seen before in a trial" which implies that you think there's something unusual going on there when there clearly, imo, isn't.

I've never heard of a judge allowing a defendant to "not answer" or be allowed a break just when it becomes difficult or she slips up ...that's the whole point of cross examination

There is a reason that we don't know about it in my opinion

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Sky news has it slightly differently, they say she refused to answer…

She now says she had more experience "so knew what I was looking for".

"What do you mean by that," Mr Johnson asks.

There is silence as Letby refuses to answer the question.

Letby then says she is finding it "quite hard to concentrate on all of the dates".

The judge then concludes proceedings early, "having observed the witness" he says it has been a "long day" for Letby.

Lucy Letby trial as it happened: Letby's Facebook messages shown in court - as lawyer says she 'cooked the records'

Former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby was back in court today after telling jurors that plumbing issues leading to raw sewage inside the Countess of Chester Hospital could help explain multiple baby deaths. The 33-year-old denies murder and attempted murder.

news.sky.com

 

[Blondiexoxo]

For some reason she is being treated with kid gloves ..every time it gets difficult she seems to be allowed a break or allowed to "not answer"

I agree, she now gets a long weekend to come up with a reason of what she meant by ‘looking for’, IMO it’s not really fair on the prosecution, NJ was mid flow making an important point and he’s been stopped abruptly and can’t continue until Tuesday now.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I agree, she now gets a long weekend to come up with a reason of what she meant by ‘looking for’, IMO it’s not really fair on the prosecution, NJ was mid flow making an important point and he’s been stopped abruptly and can’t continue until Tuesday now.

MOO

Jury will have noted it IMO. Nothing slips past the 12 people looking at her square on.

 

[Dotta]

Jury will have noted it IMO. Nothing slips past the 12 people looking at her square on.

Not to mention her Defence team
I bet they were sitting "on hot coals" and these 4 hours seemed eternity.
They also need time to recuperate.

Until next time!

JMO

 

[notsure]

Perhaps. Or this is showing the stark contrast between a highly educated word smith (like any KC who uses and analyses words with laser like precision) and a lay person who doesn’t , and who uses clumsy, general terms to describe things which can have more than one interpretation.

Exactly - I don't think we can infer much from a misplaced preposition. You only have to look at a forum such as this to see how misuse of words/poor grammar can change the meaning of a post completely.

Anyway, I think it's simply explained by saying "I knew the signs to look for if a baby wasn't well."

 

[Diddly1]

What a day…

 

[notsure]

For some reason she is being treated with kid gloves ..every time it gets difficult she seems to be allowed a break or allowed to "not answer"

I wouldn't say she's been handled with kid gloves. From what was reported, the cross-examination seemed quite aggressive today.

 

[Anxala]

Exactly - I don't think we can infer much from a misplaced preposition. You only have to look at a forum such as this to see how misuse of words/poor grammar can change the meaning of a post completely.

Precisely. And we don't have the excuse of being on a stand in a courtroom accused of being a mass-murdering serial killer for our grammatical and inarticulate errors!