UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[Dotta]

I really don’t think legally they would abort the trial at this stage. If she refuses to give any further evidence and she says that on Wednesday I THINK and don’t quote me that the trial would continue straight onto the defence experts and carry on. There couldn’t be re examination of the cross examination from BM - I cannot see that being allowed by the trial judge. The jury would obviously take inference from her unwillingness to continue in the box and quite rightly so. She’s screwed either way.
It was a disaster to put her in the witness box in the first place.
The defence have never introduced any MH issues bar PTSD so they are in a really bizarre position here.
MOO

Thanks for your words of wisdom
I totally agree.
A mistrial sounds so absurd!
I mean - really!!!

Goodnight

 

[Parker Knoll]

God knows what could happen Dotta but you get a good night sleep !
;-)

 

[Tortoise]

Having read around child C upon a member stating that the evidence points towards an ‘air bubble’. I am sceptical.

Child C clinical signs; Dark Vomit (e.g., bile like vomit) and respiratory distress (i.e., req. O2) followed later by cardio-pulmonary arrest

Investigations: raised WBC’s + Inflammatory markers

Findings- CXR: pneumonia, AXR: air in abdomen.

Upon questioning, by the defence Dr Bohn testified that baby C’s respiratory support (i.e., CPAP belly) could be a factor to account for the accumulation of air.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

In relation some causes of cardiopulmonary arrest:

Child C had been vomiting and had pneumonia; pneumonia +\- hypovolemia can lead to hypoxia, which in turn can lead to reversible cardiopulmonary arrest. Which, in turn could explain the heart restarting, with later gasps for air - according to Dr Gibbs testimony.

LL claims she did not tend to Baby-C as SE was the designated nurse, until she assisted with the resuscitation attempts. (Post collapse)

Child C wasn't vomiting on the day or night of his death. The medical experts reviewed his clinical history and said it was not relevant to his sudden collapse and death.


"Another expert paediatrician, Dr Sandie Bohin, said she believed the only plausible explanation for Baby C's collapse was an introduction of air into his system."

Baby 'suffocated when Lucy Letby injected air into his stomach': trial

The child, Baby C, had pneumonia and needed some respiratory support but was considered stable by doctors at the Countess of Chester Hospital, in Cheshire.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

I really don’t think legally they would abort the trial at this stage. If she refuses to give any further evidence and she says that on Wednesday I THINK and don’t quote me that the trial would continue straight onto the defence experts and carry on. There couldn’t be re examination of the cross examination from BM - I cannot see that being allowed by the trial judge. The jury would obviously take inference from her unwillingness to continue in the box and quite rightly so. She’s screwed either way.
It was a disaster to put her in the witness box in the first place.
The defence have never introduced any MH issues bar PTSD so they are in a really bizarre position here.
MOO

I agree with this. I've said repeatedly that I'm utterly stunned by how unbelievably strange and bizarre this whole event has been and the events yesterday have sent things into a totally different universe, quite honestly!

Agree with you that its highly unlikely that this trial is going to be abandoned in order start afresh but I'm really puzzled as to what's going on. It's completely off the charts at present, I think.

Whatever we may think might be the outcome on Wednesday, I can pretty much bet that we'll all be wrong!

 

[Kemug]

I'd expect so. She's on trial but she's also still on remand (ie. not convicted) so presumably entitled to the same privileges anyone else on remand would be in terms of family, friends etc visits.

ETA. I feel so sorry for her parents, can't even begin to imagine what life must be like for them.

They probably know a lot more than we do. Maybe they are seeing their worst fears confirmed.

 

[Sweeper2000]

‘we’ can also be a way of mentally distancing yourself from something, so it’s not actually ‘her’ in her own mind but the wider ‘we’ who do or don’t do things, she’s a collective not an individual then

for sure. It’s also the collective indicative that makes me wonder if she is mentally picturing a group of people rather than the moment In time that’s under question. That would be a hypothetical rather a mental summoning of a time and place in retrospect.

i know people have said stuff about the police interviews but I’m wondering if there is any pointers on testimony from those.

eta. It’s her police interview I’m interested in, I really want to know what details she was given for any event. I will presume date, allocated baby? , fellow colleague?, anything else?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Recover over the weekend and Im guessing she will testify and questioning will resume ASAP. Place your bets. Five quids worth from me.

 

[Sweeper2000]

In cross questioning she said she wouldn’t have through the incubator lid access. Ie the incubator lid would need to be up to gain access to the lines. I think that puts a new element to the cases with people in the room. do we have pics of the incubators?

 

[Kemug]

If it comes down to LL's word against Dr J's, and she is found guilty, I don't envy Dr J. Even though he was truthful, he will probably feel uncomfortable about it for the rest of his life.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

In cross questioning she said she wouldn’t have through the incubator lid access. Ie the incubator lid would need to be up to gain access to the lines. I think that puts a new element to the cases with people in the room. do we have pics of the incubators?

Unless incubators in the UK are vastly different than the ones in the US....they have port holes. Each side has a pair of little round doors you open and stick your hands through. Once your hands are within the incubator, you have access to the lines at the point nearest the baby - the cannula, etc. There are little holes on the sides of the incubator to thread the lines through and out and over to the IV pumps. Some IV tubing comes with additional ports below the pump and above the baby, to allow piggybacking of fluids. These ports access the fluid pathway. Depending on exactly how they are hanging, this type of tubing might allow access to the fluid path without reaching into the incubator.

 

[katydid23]

I’m wondering if baby c notes indicate something other than NG air Was the cause. Im no doctor but with the copious amounts of info on hg air I think we all have at least an idea. It’s baby c showing vital signs after the resus efforts that’s making me wonder. The info I’m thinking of is what magicarp said about how no breathing essentially starves the heart of oxygen so it doesn’t beat anymore. I don’t know if the muscle being starved of oxygen means that were that ng air to shift allowing flow to resume would the muscle start working again Or would the heart be permanently damaged beyond repair at that point?

dr Gibbs said he didn’t understand it from a natural disease POV but does that mean then that what happened is explainable by administered air? If so, why ? If not, why?

does the sequence of events around baby c correspond with what one could expect from ng air?

I really do question how the ng air allegation would cause death when aspiration of the ng tube is routine in resus efforts and presumably is done at the start of the resus efforts.

You admit, that you, just like me, have no medical training or medical degrees. Should we be questioning the conclusions of several highly experienced, fully trained, elite medical minds, with many decades of hands on experience with premature babies ? They have supported their findings with scientific research and post mortem investigations, so it seems kind of a stretch to think we can come up with some medical finding that would negate theirs.

The routine aspiration of an NG tube is not the same thing as injecting air in someones bloodstream through the lines. AFAIK

 

[katydid23]

If it comes down to LL's word against Dr J's, and she is found guilty, I don't envy Dr J. Even though he was truthful, he will probably feel uncomfortable about it for the rest of his life.

I don't know. If I was a doctor and I saw what he saw, and experienced what he experienced the previous months, I'd be relieved if she was found guilty. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable about the verdict but I would feel very uncomfortable about the babies that were harmed after everyone knew.

 

[Kemug]

And of course it is also LL's word against the mother of Baby E (I think it's E?). That is another choice the jury has to make as to who to believe. I didn't mean before that Dr J might feel uncomfortable as in he shouldn't have spoken up, or shouldn't have insisted on his testimony - I'm not putting this very well, I suppose I mean that if I were in his place, even though I knew I was right, and had been vindicated, it would be in my head for the rest of my life that I helped convict a murderer. Not in a guilty way, but that I was a part of history which I would much rather not have been.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

She would lie about the mum because she wasn't ready to report the bleeding and have that discovered by doctors yet, if it was intended to be accompanied by air embolism but she mistimed it.

Whatever she said to the mum worked, whether that was we'll update you, don't worry, or similar.

JMO

Dr Bohn stated both the introduction of air Or CPAP belly could account for the air.(source inc. in initial post)

And, in relation to vomit - I note there are two nursing entries, which initially I misunderstood as both relating to ‘bile like vomit’… only.

- Dr Bohn also raised concern about the poor placement of a long line and the NG tube - which may be associated with the blood IMO (IDK).

However, One entry refers to dark vomit (which could be blood from the lower GI tract), noted by Dr Evans, followed by 4 dark bile-like aspirates (i.e., nurses notes)

I have not been able to confirm the date/ days of the vomit and aspirates, in relation to baby C’s collapse - which I think may have been on the 13th June?

Source: Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1

 

[JosieJo]

Dr Bohn stated both the introduction of air Or CPAP belly could account for the air.(source inc. in initial post)

And, in relation to vomit - I note there are two nursing entries, which initially I misunderstood as both relating to ‘bile like vomit’… only.

- Dr Bohn also raised concern about the poor placement of a long line and the NG tube - which may be associated with the blood IMO (IDK).

However, One entry refers to dark vomit (which could be blood from the lower GI tract), noted by Dr Evans, followed by 4 dark bile-like aspirates (i.e., nurses notes)

I have not been able to confirm the date/ days of the vomit and aspirates, in relation to baby C’s collapse - which I think may have been on the 13th June?

Source: Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1

The history from birth to death/ collapse surely is not that relevant...because despite all the said history..and other possibilities each medical expert has summarised their overall cause of death and why.
The jury are not going to try and make their decision on all the history and symptoms they will use the cause presented

 

[DickieDumDum]

If the defence don't produce any medical experts of their own I'm pretty sure the jury will quickly accept that all the attacks took place, then it's just a question of whether the defendant was behind them or not.

 

[Legal]

I don't know. If I was a doctor and I saw what he saw, and experienced what he experienced the previous months, I'd be relieved if she was found guilty. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable about the verdict but I would feel very uncomfortable about the babies that were harmed after everyone knew.

I feel more sorry for the colleagues/ friends whose names are splashed all over the media and private messages quoted. I would be mortified by that alone, never mind the horrendous realisation that babies you looked after were allegedly murdered by someone you knew well and trusted.

 

[Legal]

for sure. It’s also the collective indicative that makes me wonder if she is mentally picturing a group of people rather than the moment In time that’s under question. That would be a hypothetical rather a mental summoning of a time and place in retrospect.

i know people have said stuff about the police interviews but I’m wondering if there is any pointers on testimony from those.

eta. It’s her police interview I’m interested in, I really want to know what details she was given for any event. I will presume date, allocated baby? , fellow colleague?, anything else?

Statement analysis is not a proven science so this is just IMO, however statement analysis does provide an explanation for the use of "we" instead of "I". Again I emphasise this is just in my opinion.

The pronoun "I" needs to be given special focus in the subject statement. Most people will reply in the first person, i.e. "I". Any deviation from that would be a subconscious indicator and red flag of deception. When someone answers a question untruthfully concerning themselves, they will sometimes subconsciously attempt to draw focus away from themselves by avoiding the use of the first person pronoun, "I". This could include words such as "we", "it", "they", "them", ""the other", or even "it". One of the best indicators of this is in a statement in which the subject continues to describe his accountings using the word "I" and then, all of a sudden, he or she simply stops using it.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Unless incubators in the UK are vastly different than the ones in the US....they have port holes. Each side has a pair of little round doors you open and stick your hands through. Once your hands are within the incubator, you have access to the lines at the point nearest the baby - the cannula, etc. There are little holes on the sides of the incubator to thread the lines through and out and over to the IV pumps. Some IV tubing comes with additional ports below the pump and above the baby, to allow piggybacking of fluids. These ports access the fluid pathway. Depending on exactly how they are hanging, this type of tubing might allow access to the fluid path without reaching into the incubator.

For sure. She said something about the lid being open though so I’m wondering if there’s no other option when trying to gain access. This article has video of the cribs. What dya think?

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, 33, gives evidence for the first time

Seven months on from the start of her trial at Manchester Crown Court, the 33-year-old entered the witness box on Tuesday to give evidence for the first time.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

For sure. She said something about the lid being open though so I’m wondering if there’s no other option when trying to gain access. This article has video of the cribs. What dya think?

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, 33, gives evidence for the first time

Seven months on from the start of her trial at Manchester Crown Court, the 33-year-old entered the witness box on Tuesday to give evidence for the first time.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They look similar to the ones I'm familiar with. I wonder if we are missing some context around LL's statement. If someone asked me if I accessed the line of a baby in an incubator, my response would not be "I couldn't have because you have to lift the lid."