UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[ColourPurple]

Baby D was born on the afternoon of Sat 20th June. LL was not working that day or night.

Sun 21st June was Fathers' Day. LL worked the night shift, which was the night baby D died. Caroline Oakley was D's designated nurse and LL had two designated babies in the same nursery. Baby D's mum says LL was in the unit when she went down to see D at around 7pm, and LL was hovering around not giving them any privacy. LL's text to someone says she is just about to leave for her nightshift at 7.15pm, and her swipe data shows LL arrived on the unit at 7.26pm.

Morning of 22nd June -

1.30am - first collapse and recovery.
3am - second collapse and recovery. Because she had made good recovery both times the parents were not disturbed.
3.45am - 3rd and final collapse.
4am - the parents were woken up and told to go to the unit. Mum says LL was holding a phone to the doctor's ear. She's seen details of her arrest in the news and that's how she knows who she is.
4.25am - baby D was pronounced dead. Mother said she did not see LL again after D's death.

RSBM

Interesting that Baby D died on the shift that started on Father's Day evening. Meaning Baby D died just hours after her dad celebrated Father's Day, and LL specifically mentioned dad in her text.

"So upsetting for everyone. Parents absolutely distraught, dad screaming.

 

[Legal]

I don't know the answer to that. Although, police didn't find a handover sheet for baby D in her house.

I'm wondering if she had additional notes of these incidents (dates, names etc) that weren't found, or she had disposed of.

I'm wondering about the post mortems. Would the hospital receive post mortem reports and would parents' names would be on this documentation? Could hospital staff access this information? Maybe that could account for the 4 month delay, if guilty. I think would need to find out from people who work in healthcare how this works.

 

[Legal]

RSBM

Interesting that Baby D died on the shift that started on Father's Day evening. Meaning Baby D died just hours after her dad celebrated Father's Day, and LL specifically mentioned dad in her text.

"So upsetting for everyone. Parents absolutely distraught, dad screaming.

Yes, it's been mentioned quite a few of these collapses happened on significant dates. I think it was Baby G who collapsed when the ward were celebrating her 100th day and they had baked a cake. And another baby collapsed on his/her due date.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes, it's been mentioned quite a few of these collapses happened on significant dates. I think it was Baby G who collapsed when the ward were celebrating her 100th day and they had baked a cake. And another baby collapsed on his/her due date.

If guilty, I'd wondered before if the June clusters were related to Father's Day but hadn't realised that Baby D was just a few hours after.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I'm wondering about the post mortems. Would the hospital receive post mortem reports and would parents' names would be on this documentation? Could hospital staff access this information? Maybe that could account for the 4 month delay, if guilty. I think would need to find out from people who work in healthcare how this works.

Yes, interesting if so. It means she's actively sought out information about parents she didn't interact with.

 

[Tortoise]

If she's done hundreds of searches that aren't archived by FB she must have had a list of names to go from, I think.

 

[Legal]

If guilty, I'd wondered before if the June clusters were related to Father's Day but hadn't realised that Baby D was just a few hours after.

JMO

I think if guilty, there may well be issues relating to her parents. Maybe resentment at their high expectations and them being very protective. For example, she states she was the first to go to university in her family and her parents posted a graduation picture of her in the local paper. When she was relegated to an admin position, they were very disappointed. She felt she couldn't go to New Zealand because they wouldn't want her to be so far away. I think others have posted that the attacks, if guilty, may have been more about the parents than the babies. IMO

 

[IDK]

DBM— went too far off topic.

 

[WaxLyrical]

In the above podcast -

"Mr Johnson pointed out that she’d searched for baby D’s mum’s full name on Facebook, three days after she died, and searched twice for the full name of her dad four months later, in October 2015. She insisted she had a good memory for names but said she didn’t know how she recalled those of baby D’s parents months later."

from live updates -
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

"Mr Johnson says Facebook does not archive the name searches beyond a certain number, so every time Letby searched a name, it would be from memory. Letby accepts that."


The timeline shows LL's agreed potential time for seeing baby D's parents ever was for 25 mins during resuscitation.


Baby D was born on the afternoon of Sat 20th June. LL was not working that day or night.

Sun 21st June was Fathers' Day. LL worked the night shift, which was the night baby D died. Caroline Oakley was D's designated nurse and LL had two designated babies in the same nursery. Baby D's mum says LL was in the unit when she went down to see D at around 7pm, and LL was hovering around not giving them any privacy. LL's text to someone says she is just about to leave for her nightshift at 7.15pm, and her swipe data shows LL arrived on the unit at 7.26pm.

Morning of 22nd June -

1.30am - first collapse and recovery.
3am - second collapse and recovery. Because she had made good recovery both times the parents were not disturbed.
3.45am - 3rd and final collapse.
4am - the parents were woken up and told to go to the unit. Mum says LL was holding a phone to the doctor's ear. She's seen details of her arrest in the news and that's how she knows who she is.
4.25am - baby D was pronounced dead. Mother said she did not see LL again after D's death.
Parents were taken to the family room with D and LL did not go in there or prepare the memory box.


Where did she get the dad's full name from, 4 months later, when she wasn't even the designated nurse and didn't interact with the parents?

Number of LL's total Facebook searches by month -

2015
June - 113
July - 70
August - 175
September - 209
October - 173

She also searched for parents of H, E&F, and I, in early October 2015.

 

[abovethestorm]

Yes, it's been mentioned quite a few of these collapses happened on significant dates. I think it was Baby G who collapsed when the ward were celebrating her 100th day and they had baked a cake. And another baby collapsed on his/her due date.

All MOO, but it's a well-known phenomenon around Cluster B/NPD folks that they love to ruin special events. They just can't resist. Speaking from personal experience, my NEX (Narcissistic ex) never missed an opportunity to destroy birthdays, holidays and celebrations. And that applies to all shades of NPD people, from overt malignant to covert 'vulnerable' Narcs. I can totally see LL (if guilty) being driven to spoil these milestones, IMO.

 

[Becky53]

Would parents full names be on the handover sheets or on any other documentation?

No idea about the handover sheet but mother’s name would be on a hospital sheet from the maternity unit after baby was born and also the wrist tags along with hospital numbers.

My full name was on all my children’s tags as child of….

 

[Tortoise]

She also searched for parents of H, E&F, and I, in early October 2015.

Yes

D's father - afternoon Sat 3rd Oct
I's mother, E&F's father, H's mother - early hours Mon 5th Oct

 

[Enquirer-2019]

I agree ---- it is bad strategy for her to deny some of these things, that she didn't seem to deny earlier.

And as you say, if she happens to be standing in a nursery, so what? You'd expect her to be in and out of most of the nurseries on her shift, for one reason or another.

It was plausible that she was just standing there right when the baby K collapsed---and it proved nothing really. But her calling out DR J as a liar---that is a very bold move.

The conspiracy defense is also a bold move. It is possible that one or 2 jurors might believe it is possible, but not if she loses her credibility first by calling everyone else out---like baby E's mum and dad, and the nurse that placed her in baby C's room.

People are questioning if maybe Baby C died of natural causes instead of an attack. OK, maybe---but why is LL trying so hard to deny what others are saying about her being by C's cot? That alone makes me doubt it was natural causes ...

LL didn’t deny being in the room with when baby-C collapsed, she stated she cannot recall why she went into room 1 (she was designated to room 3 with other babies), but she may have entered in response to an alarm going off; she also stated earlier that medications for her designated babies would likely have been drawn up in room-1, not room 3.

So, SE feeds baby-c at 11pm (I did not find a time given of how long this took) and afterwards went briefly to the nurses station, upon her return she states LL was staring ‘cotside’ and said - ‘He just dropped his sats’


LL states that she believes she left room 3 to go to the nurses station, prior to going into room-1, she presumes this may have been in response to an alarm sounding from baby-C, but cannot be certain.


The evidence presented shows LL was engaged in texting when SE began feeding baby-c at 11 PM, and remained texting up to 11.09 pm.
Therefore, the time SE left child-c after feeding him would be significant because the alarm of a collapse was raised at 11.15 PM.

So, LL had at most 6 minutes to walk to room-1 open baby-c’s incubator and inflict harm she is accused of, or less if SE left room-1 after 11.09 pm.

Also, during these texts exchanges LL implied that she liked talking with nurse SE. In contrast with the theory that she was jealous or wanted to blame her (e.g., suggested by an earlier posts on here). Texting her friend moments before child-c’s collapse - ‘S.E. is in room-1 so I haven’t got her to talk with either’ (I.e., seemingly sad about that).

Sources:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Accused nurse ‘stood by baby’s incubator after heart rate and oxygen alert’

At Manchester Crown Court, Lucy Letby denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more.

guernseypress.com

 

[Popcorn80]

Would parents full names be on the handover sheets or on any other documentation?

Admission paperwork, the next of kin fills this out. It will include both parents full names and contact details. Anyone that works on the unit had access to this information.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Yes

D's father - afternoon Sat 3rd Oct
I's mother, E&F's father, H's mother - early hours Mon 5th Oct

I have known of nurses to look up patients names on the internet (e.g., SM/ News stories) In an attempt to find out how they are (I.e., if they recovered), after being transferred/ discharged.

And, assumed it was because they were prohibited from searching the patients electronic notes directly, but cared about them. I never assumed that suggested anything sinister.

And, whilst I do not engage of the use of SM myself, I am aware that some who do can develop a compulsion to its use. In this case, the defendants use of SM certainly appears excessive, if not IMO bordering on extreme.

Generally speaking, research has shown that compulsive or excessive SM use has been associated with OCD, which by itself does not indicate, and differs to an actual personality disorder.

Source:

Learn the Difference Between Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder and OCD

Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) is characterized by inflexibility and strict orderliness. Learn more about what makes OCPD distinct from OCD.

www.verywellmind.com

 

[IDK]

Admission paperwork, the next of kin fills this out. It will include both parents full names and contact details. Anyone that works on the unit had access to this information.

Just curious if all that is included even if the parents are unmarried?

 

[marynnu]

I have known of nurses to look up patients names on the internet (e.g., SM/ News stories) In an attempt to find out how they are (I.e., if they recovered), after being transferred/ discharged.

And, assumed it was because they were prohibited from searching the patients electronic notes directly, but cared about them. I never assumed that suggested anything sinister.

And, whilst I do not engage of the use of SM myself, I am aware that some who do can develop a compulsion to its use. In this case, the defendants use of SM certainly appears excessive, if not IMO bordering on extreme.

Generally speaking, research has shown that compulsive or excessive SM use has been associated with OCD, which by itself does not indicate, and differs to an actual personality disorder.

Source:

Learn the Difference Between Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder and OCD

Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) is characterized by inflexibility and strict orderliness. Learn more about what makes OCPD distinct from OCD.

www.verywellmind.com

Not sure that applies to searching for parents of a twin who has died just hours before. They'd still be visiting the surviving baby. Not exactly hard to know how they're doing IMO.

 

[marynnu]

Just curious if all that is included even if the parents are unmarried?

It makes no difference. Just as well where I worked, as married couples were quite the novelty! Single moms had control though, and could exclude fathers from both records and visiting.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

I was listening to the podcast Lady Killers by Lucy Worsley which examines historic cases involving women who have killed from a new and also feminist perspective. The latest episode is Jane Toppan Link to podcast .

One of the speakers references Narcissistic Immunity - the narcissist thinking they are so clever they will not be found guilty .

This sounds like a very interesting podcast, thank you for the share @Lincoln34

 

[Dotta]

All MOO, but it's a well-known phenomenon around Cluster B/NPD folks that they love to ruin special events. They just can't resist. Speaking from personal experience, my NEX (Narcissistic ex) never missed an opportunity to destroy birthdays, holidays and celebrations. And that applies to all shades of NPD people, from overt malignant to covert 'vulnerable' Narcs. I can totally see LL (if guilty) being driven to spoil these milestones, IMO.

What exactly is the cause of this?

Are such people born with some brain abnormalities?
Or is it the result of upbringing or some trauma?

Because it seems to me it is the manifestation of hatred/malice towards others or self hatred.

Or maybe such people feel somehow threatened by others or don't think their needs are are met?

Is it unhappiness, feeling of disillusionment with life in general?

Is there a cure for this terrible condition?

JMO