UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[ColourPurple]

All new to me. Well, well.

And this too

"He says Letby had also fallen out with another colleague, who "wouldn't talk to you in the aftermath of [children A & B]."

Hmm

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

This seems to be a new line he's going down. Hopefully we hear more!



Wow! something I don't think we were aware of before either!

Yes, and the handover sheet collection would be very useful for seeing which babies had problems, for instance if there had been a history of bowel issues, and she (hypothetically) just has to wait for the next time she is on shift with a nurse she has fallen out with who has care of that baby. MOO

 

[Sundial]

I guess one of the many things that has me gripped here is that all of these supposed coincidences all involve LL being around. She described some of them as ‘innocent coincidences’, but how many bad things have to happen to children with one person being linked to all of them before you begin to question it?

To be fair, she’d have to be fairly daft to think all these were just coincidences as she keeps describing. Either plain reckless and aloof and she would never have even made it through the first year of her nurse training OR - the possibility she could have actually done this and is in some kind of weird denial.

I don’t see any other alternative tbh. All very harrowing.

If guilty, imo etc

 

[Sundial]

And this too

"He says Letby had also fallen out with another colleague, who "wouldn't talk to you in the aftermath of [children A & B]."

Hmm

Interesting I thought, makes you wonder specifically what that was about in more detail..

Although it’s possible the colleague was distressed enough by it themselves and just didn’t want to discuss it. Understandable really. But it does remind me of the whole thing with Mel Taylor where LL is texting JJK and expresses how Mel didn’t want to discuss baby C I think? But Mel was then back in room 1 or something.

So she’d fell out with Mel already over a similar thing and here, a second colleague who wouldn’t talk to her in similar circumstances. Very odd.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

And this too

"He says Letby had also fallen out with another colleague, who "wouldn't talk to you in the aftermath of [children A & B]."

Hmm

If true, IMO not talking to someone is quite extreme, especially in a work environment such as this. It could get pretty volatile at times where I worked, but people generally patched things up very quickly. I can only recall a couple of very serious clashes and they when one staff member had behaved very badly indeed. Nothing to do with patients though, it must be said.

 

[Imnothere]

I think it’s agreed as factual evidence by both her own defence and the prosecution. Not sure whether *she* would have agreed to it, but legal discussions between both prosecution and defence appear to agree to the evidence- except she seemingly doesn’t.

At least that’s how it appears to me.
JMO

Her defence represents her so she has to sign off on it. There are plenty of incidents where she didn't agree to the original evidence. I can think of the Mum who said she came down at 9pm. That wasn't agreed evidence.

 

[Sundial]

If true, IMO not talking to someone is quite extreme, especially in a work environment such as this. It could get pretty volatile at times where I worked, but people generally patched things up very quickly. I can only recall a couple of very serious clashes and they when one staff member had behaved very badly indeed. Nothing to do with patients though, it must be said.

Completely agree, my experience has been quite similar to what you describe. The strange thing is, it’s almost near impossible to *not* speak to those in your team in this kind of work. I feel this is some food for thought here though - it must have been something quite unsettling. I noticed JJK appears to distance herself from her too with time.

I also think about about the discussions mentioned to her about having some counselling quite early on too, and she said she couldn’t (or words along that). I can’t help but wonder if they were fed up with the bombardment of her own *distress* no-one else would understand or keep ruminating over that event. There appears to be a lot of this in her messages to dr choc, reliving and sobbing etc. Something quite uncomfortable about it.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Completely agree, my experience has been quite similar to what you describe. The strange thing is, it’s almost near impossible to *not* speak to those in your team in this kind of work. I feel this is some food for thought here though - it must have been something quite unsettling. I noticed JJK appears to distance herself from her too with time.

I also think about about the discussions mentioned to her about having some counselling quite early on too, and she said she couldn’t (or words along that). I can’t help but wonder if they were fed up with the bombardment of her own *distress* no-one else would understand or keep ruminating over that event. There appears to be a lot of this in her messages to dr choc, reliving and sobbing etc. Something quite uncomfortable about it.

JMO

All the following JMO.

I agree. No matter what, staff have to be professional and maintain a working relationship at least.

The suggestion of counselling struck me as rather unusual when I read it. It's a tricky working environment at times, and staff do get pretty stressed and angry. I had some colleagues who sometimes cried at the thought of going to work. But we understood 100% why. You don't suggest counselling unless you think the person themselves has difficulties as opposed to a normal reaction to a distressing situation. IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

With the inconsistencies that aren’t being addressed satisfactorily by LL, I maintain that she’s made a mistake taking the stand. Just saying “no” or “I can’t recall that” isn’t enough.

I don't think she knows how to read the room. I think that much is plain from her texts with doc choc and her interactions with some of the parents. She can't seem to put herself in the shoes of others. JMO

 

[Legal]

I was on a one month long course once with people I didn't know, and one woman kept offloading her stress and problems on me (and others probably). I wasn't particularly stressed myself but I did want to focus on the course. Her needs were so time-consuming and obsessive, she was an emotional vampire. I've had a (now ex) friend like that too, everything always about her and her problems, and whatever you suggest to help, there's a reason why it won't work. It's exhausting and the only solution is to cut these people off completely. If LL is one of these kinds of people (and she may or may not be), I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with her needs constantly at work, when you were trying to do your job and deal with the loss of babies. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

2:23pm

The trial is now resuming.
Prosecutor Nicholas Johnson KC is continuing to cross-examine Lucy Letby on the case of Child I.
An observation chart for Child I is shown for September 30. Hourly observations are made for 10am-1pm, and 3pm to the rest of the day.
Letby says there is "no reason" why the 2pm observation is not made.
Letby is asked which 'doctors' reviewed Child I at 3pm. Letby names one doctor and believes it was one doctor reviewed.
Mr Johnson says there is no medical note in relation to this.
Letby denies "making it up".
Mr Johnson asks Letby why the 'bottle-bottle-NGT' feed system is interrupted by 'bottle-NGT-NGT'.
Letby says the 4pm, 2nd NGT feed was as Child I was asleep.
Letby denies "lyingly" recording notes for when Child I had bowel movements during the day.
Mr Johnson says a doctor's notes do not note a prior examination. Letby denies making up the examination in her notes. She adds: "Just because it's [not there] doesn't mean it [didn't take place]."

2:26pm

Mr Johnson says Letby is "very keen" to raise doctor's mistakes with the likes of Dr Harkness and Dr Gibbs, but not in this case.
LL: "I don't believe this was noted at the time, my priority was [Child I], not medical notes."
NJ: "You force fed [Child I] didn't you?"
LL: "No, I didn't."
Letby says Child I did not wake for that feed, so an NGT feed was given as "standard practice".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
9m

We're back after a break for lunch. Mr Johnson is asking Ms Letby about an event at 1500 on 30 September 2015

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
7m

Ms Letby's notes state that at 1500 Child I was 'reviewed by drs', that she 'appeared mottled in colour'. Mr Johnson says this was a 'fictional medical examination'. He says there was no medical note from a doctor on this and that she had 'made it up'

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
6m

Ms Letby says she does not agree. She does acknowledge that there is no record of this examination in medical history though

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
3m

Mr Johnson asks her why, if 'drs' had examined the baby and this was not recorded, did she not raise this in a DATIX report. She said her priority was caring for Child I, not looking at what had been written on forms

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

Mr Johnson says 'you had pumped her with air or milk hadn’t you', Ms Letby said no. He says 'were you excited by what you did', she says 'no, I fed (Child I) a normal tube feed'

 

[Sundial]

All the following JMO.

I agree. No matter what, staff have to be professional and maintain a working relationship at least.

The suggestion of counselling struck me as rather unusual when I read it. It's a tricky working environment at times, and staff do get pretty stressed and angry. I had some colleagues who sometimes cried at the thought of going to work. But we understood 100% why. You don't suggest counselling unless you think the person themselves has difficulties as opposed to a normal reaction to a distressing situation. IMO.

I completely agree. I’ve worked with some very particularly challenging colleagues (haven’t we all?!) in this environment. Call it personality clash or whatever, but the professionalism and care to the patients must always remain exactly that- no matter how much you work well or not with certain colleagues. I’ve encountered quite a few in some places I’ve worked who seem to use it more as a social means for friendship rather than actually embracing their role and enjoying it as just that. Don’t get me wrong you make friends in the workplace sure, but, that’s not why you’re there!

Just my own musings but I personally would never recommend counselling to my colleague (or anyone else) without an unjust and very valid reason. They were clearly (and I feel rightly so from what we’ve heard) quite concerned for her to suggest it.

Moo

 

[Tortoise]

Judith Moritz

@JudithMoritz
·
38s

Court resumes.
NJKC: You force fed baby I, didn’t you?
LL: No I did not
NJKC: She vomited 30 mins after you recorded giving her a feed and up to that point she’d shown no signs of anything being significantly wrong with her had she?
LL: Other than a low temperature no

 

[Tortoise]

2:31pm

Mr Johnson says "despite all the positive signs" for Child I, she vomited, just like Child G, and in both cases, Letby was there.
Letby says she does not recall if she was there when Child I vomited.
A medical report said Child I: "There is splinting of the diaphragm due to bowel distention..."
Letby denies "pumping" Child I full of milk or air.
Letby: "I fed [Child I] the normal dose of milk for her feed."
A blood gas chart for Child I is shown - the chart had not been noted up by Letby and it was found on a clipboard. It was signed by Bernadette Butterworth for Letby.
Letby says the chart was "not hidden - it was there for anyone to see."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

14:33

Letby accused of making up 'fictional medical examination'​

Prosecution barrister Nick Johnson says he will continue by looking at Letby's "invention of a medical examination at 13.00".
This is in the case of Child I - it is claimed Letby tried to kill the infant four times before succeeding.
A NICU observation chart is being shown to the court. Letby stopped recording on this at 13.00. Previously, the court had heard neonatal staff were instructed to "monitor closely".
In her notes, Letby put "drs [doctors] were crash called" to the infant. Letby has again not specified which doctors these were.
Letby tells the court they "can't read" into the use of doctors (plural). She thinks only one doctor was called.
She is asked why she hasn't specified which doctor was called to Child I.
"I can't say," she replies.
"I am going to suggest an explanation - you didn't want it to be attributed in case anyone asks questions of the doctor," Mr Johnson says.
"I disagree," says Letby.
Mr Johnson calls it a "fictional medical examination".

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Lucy Letby, a former neonatal nurse, has been back in court for another day of cross-examination by the prosecution on Friday. She is accused of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of 10 others, and denies all the charges.

news.sky.com

 

[Sundial]

I was on a one month long course once with people I didn't know, and one woman kept offloading her stress and problems on me (and others probably). I wasn't particularly stressed myself but I did want to focus on the course. Her needs were so time-consuming and obsessive, she was an emotional vampire. I've had a (now ex) friend like that too, everything always about her and her problems, and whatever you suggest to help, there's a reason why it won't work. It's exhausting and the only solution is to cut these people off completely. If LL is one of these kinds of people (and she may or may not be), I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with her needs constantly at work, when you were trying to do your job and deal with the loss of babies. JMO

Or by persisting text messages where you can’t switch off from work when you’re at home/personal lives. I’ve had this too and it is incredibly draining when others are continually hyped about work and the patients/staff 24/7 JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Judith Moritz

@JudithMoritz
·
2m

Nick Johnson KC: You had pumped baby I with air or milk hadn’t you?
Lucy Letby: No
NJKC: Were you excited by what you did?
LL: No. I fed baby I a normal tube feed

 

[marynnu]

I completely agree. I’ve worked with some very particularly challenging colleagues (haven’t we all?!) in this environment. Call it personality clash or whatever, but the professionalism and care to the patients must always remain exactly that- no matter how much you work well or not with certain colleagues. I’ve encountered quite a few in some places I’ve worked who seem to use it more as a social means for friendship rather than actually embracing their role and enjoying it as just that. Don’t get me wrong you make friends in the workplace sure, but, that’s not why you’re there!

Just my own musings but I personally would never recommend counselling to my colleague (or anyone else) without an unjust and very valid reason. They were clearly (and I feel rightly so from what we’ve heard) quite concerned for her to suggest it.

Moo

Exactly this. And IMO most nurses would be pretty miffed if you suggested they might need counselling! "Are you saying I can't cope?'!!

 

[Tortoise]

14:35

'It's not my error' - Letby​

Notes from another medical examination an hour and 40 minutes later contain no trace of the one Letby claims happened.
Letby claims Child I had a serious medical incident that required a senior doctor to visit at 1pm.
The same senior doctor inspected Child I just before 3pm - his contemporaneous notes, which are being shown to the court, contain no mention of the 1pm crash call.
Prosecution barrister Nick Johnson questions why the doctor would not have included such a serious call in his notes, only an hour later.
"Just because it is not written there, that is not necessarily my error," Letby tells the court.
"You force-fed Child I, didn't you?" Mr Johnson says.
"No, I did not," Letby replies.

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Lucy Letby, a former neonatal nurse, has been back in court for another day of cross-examination by the prosecution on Friday. She is accused of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of 10 others, and denies all the charges.

news.sky.com