UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[BabaVanga]

I wish I was allowed to say how calculated and evil this psychopath is (if guilty) but I know I’m not so I’ll refrain

 

[JosieJo]

It is but I think its her way of saying that she has a compulsion for acquiring certain things. She won't say "I have an uncontrollable obsession for collecting/hoarding things" because I don't think she can.

All MOO, obviously.

Thing is though she only seems to keep "certain types " of paper ..that just happen to be work related

 

[Lincoln34]

2:39pm

Letby adds she did not make the phone call to Child N's parents, and denies making false entries in the paperwork.
An intensive care chart is shown for Child N on June 15, saying at 10am '1ml fresh blood'. Letby says she "cannot say" if it was a vomit or aspirate. The note is in Letby's handwriting.
Letby is asked what she did about it.
Letby: "I cannot say right now."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 7 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

This contradiction of the parents is damning. They will remember the situation with a huge amount of clarity. It’s their child.

She’s on a sticky wicket contradicting the parents IMO.

I used to practice in brain injury at birth cases, and as a general rule the parent’s recollections were spot on.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

If you look at each case individually, you may be able to consider there is another possible, although improbable, non-malicious possibility.

But if you look at all 22 incidents, then what?
Am I to believe that 22 different times, babies who were settled and healthy, suddenly collapsed, often with unexplained internal bleeding, and/or a very unusual mottled purplish rash, and each and every time, Nurse Letby was on duty, allegedly and in most cases, was cot-side minutes before?

When I look at the entire pattern of incidents, I cannot accept that there would be a huge spike in unexplained collapses which all happened, allegedly, right under LL's nose.

Especially when the collapses did not ever happen when she was away on her two vacations , but resumed the very day she returned. And the collapses switched from night time to day time just as she switched shifts from night to day shifts. Allegedly.

I think when we look at each case individually we can always find questions about the medical evidence because there is always going to be an alternative scenario. But when we look at the big picture, there is no rational explanation for the obvious pattern of suspicious events. JMO

But they aren’t unexplained collapses for the most part. The prosecution’s experts have given a specific reason for the collapses in most cases. The defence says those reasons are wrong and that it was something else .

The question is which position is more credible. I’m not saying you have to have only one medical explanation which no one disagrees with in order to conclude that a murder or AM took place. But you have to be sure that one did take place.

You can’t convict on the basis that “there are 22 collapses, we don’t know what caused them, but here’s this person who was around for all of them and they were acting weird, so therefore the collapses must all be murder or AM and this person must be guilty.”

You have to be sure that a murder or AM has occurred before you start introducing opinions about a person’s behaviour into your thought process.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

"Because I collect paper"?? Am I alone in thinking that is a very peculiar statement?

It would make perfect sense if we were dealing with a true hoarder. But if she did just generally “collect paper”, I would have expected her house to be one where there are stacks of old magazines , newspapers, flyers all over the place dating back years , balanced so high and precariously that they might topple over at any moment and crush you .

IMO the truth is that she collected certain pieces of paper because of what was on the paper or what the paper represented.

 

[esther43]

If so, why wouldn't the defense say that? It would be pretty surprising that a confident, skilled nurse who usually worked with the poorly babies would not know that a 25-weeker would need instant support.

Elizabeth Morgan, Agreed Evidence
For a baby of this gestational age, it would be standard practice for a nurse to take corrective action, carry out checks and call for help if a desaturation was noted.
It would 'not be normal practice' to wait and see if the baby self-corrects, for a baby of this gestational age.

Yeah, I would have thought she gained planty of experience in managing extremely prem babies whilst on her level 3 placement and it must have been covered in the ICU course.

 

[esther43]

But they aren’t unexplained collapses for the most part. The prosecution’s experts have given a specific reason for the collapses in most cases. The defence says those reasons are wrong and that it was something else .

The question is which position is more credible. I’m not saying you have to have only one medical explanation which no one disagrees with in order to conclude that a murder or AM took place. But you have to be sure that one did take place.

You can’t convict on the basis that “there are 22 collapses, we don’t know what caused them, but here’s this person who was around for all of them and they were acting weird, so therefore the collapses must all be murder or AM and this person must be guilty.”

You have to be sure that a murder or AM has occurred before you start introducing opinions about a person’s behaviour into your thought process.

I get what you are saying but I think it's too much to expect the non medical jury to decide whether it was murder or not. All they can decide is whether the they believe the medical experts essentially.
I don't expect the defence to be able to bring experts that can contradict what's already been medically confirmed. Medicine is a shared language after all, you can't just go rogue with absurd theories, close your eyes and hope for the best. It would be medically irresponsible.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Thing is though she only seems to keep "certain types " of paper ..that just happen to be work related

Which is my point, really.

I think that she is the type of person who lives for her work rather than someone who works to live. I think it is hugely important to her and defines who she is in her own mind.

MOO, obvs

 

[marynnu]

But they aren’t unexplained collapses for the most part. The prosecution’s experts have given a specific reason for the collapses in most cases. The defence says those reasons are wrong and that it was something else .

The question is which position is more credible. I’m not saying you have to have only one medical explanation which no one disagrees with in order to conclude that a murder or AM took place. But you have to be sure that one did take place.

You can’t convict on the basis that “there are 22 collapses, we don’t know what caused them, but here’s this person who was around for all of them and they were acting weird, so therefore the collapses must all be murder or AM and this person must be guilty.”

You have to be sure that a murder or AM has occurred before you start introducing opinions about a person’s behaviour into your thought process.

The collapses were inexplicable and unexpected at the time, I think that's the point. It's hard to express just how extremely odd this is on a neonatal unit.

 

[Tortoise]

"Mr Johnson said: “She knew you were sweet on (the doctor), didn’t she?”

Letby said: “What do you mean, sweet?”

Mr Johnson said: “That you had a crush on him.”

“No,” said Letby.

“There was nothing between me and (the doctor).”

[...]

Mr Johnson asked the defendant: “What did you understand the message to mean?”

Letby said: “I don’t know, I can’t say.”

Mr Johnson said: “A reference to the Royal Marines?”

Letby said: “I don’t know.”

Mr Johnson said: “You understood it, you found it highly amusing. Do yourself justice, what do you understand ‘go commando’ to mean?”

“I don’t know,” said Letby.

Mr Johnson said: “Do you think it’s an Army reference, being from Hereford?”

Letby repeated: “I don’t know.”

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-06-07/nurse-denies-rooting-in-bin-for-towel-used-in-baby-resuscitation

 

[Tortoise]

The nurse agreed she had felt agitated by the arrival of a transport team from Alder Hey Hospital, Liverpool, but only because 'I didn't know who they were'.

She added: 'I'd never experienced other staff come from a different department or hospital. It was a completely new experience'.

Mr Johnson: 'Did you think that eyes from outside might work out what you'd been up to?'

Letby: 'No, I wanted them to help N'. She denied using doctors being in a huddle as an 'opportunity' to make another attempt on Baby N's life.

Lucy Letby gossiped about doctor she 'fancied' in, court hears

Letby, 33, came under questioning at Manchester Crown Court today about her friendship with the registrar while being taken through a series of WhatsApp messages she swapped with a colleague.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[esther43]

The nurse agreed she had felt agitated by the arrival of a transport team from Alder Hey Hospital, Liverpool, but only because 'I didn't know who they were'.

She added: 'I'd never experienced other staff come from a different department or hospital. It was a completely new experience'.

Mr Johnson: 'Did you think that eyes from outside might work out what you'd been up to?'

Letby: 'No, I wanted them to help N'. She denied using doctors being in a huddle as an 'opportunity' to make another attempt on Baby N's life.

Lucy Letby gossiped about doctor she 'fancied' in, court hears

Letby, 33, came under questioning at Manchester Crown Court today about her friendship with the registrar while being taken through a series of WhatsApp messages she swapped with a colleague.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Bit strange. It shouldn't really cause a person to feel that disorientated. Units I've worked and stayed in are always having visitors from other hospitals, departments, networks and obviously transfer teams are on and off units too. Whilst it might provoke curiosity, It shouldn't really be an unsettling experience. Imo.

 

[esther43]

Thing is though she only seems to keep "certain types " of paper ..that just happen to be work related

What does she even mean by she collects paper?
For what purpose?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Bit strange. It shouldn't really cause a person to feel that disorientated. Units I've worked and stayed in are always having visitors from other hospitals, departments, networks and obviously transfer teams are on and off units too. Whilst it might provoke curiosity, It shouldn't really be an unsettling experience. Imo.

Tbh I think her reaction there is the whole stranger danger feeling shy/private people get when being introduced to new people. Not everybody finds meeting new people a positive experience. people on the spectrum specifically, they need more time to feel comfortable with it.

I would feel this is way more suspicious if she then went and “checked” on the baby, would be easy to assume she was actually looking to get rid of any evidence of foul play.

it is another one of those things in this case that depends on whether or not she is guilty.

 

[esther43]

Thing is though she only seems to keep "certain types " of paper ..that just happen to be work related

Well exactly, if you have a problem throwing things away, surely that would apply to bank statements too? You are either organised, scatty semi organised or a hoarder.
A semi organised person wouldn't have specific things they shred and specific things they don't.
Surely they are either on top of things or not?
Maybe I am being narrow minded here....

 

[esther43]

Tbh I think her reaction there is the whole stranger danger feeling shy/private people get when being introduced to new people. Not everybody finds meeting new people a positive experience. people on the spectrum specifically, they need more time to feel comfortable with it.

I would feel this is way more suspicious if she then went and “checked” on the baby, would be easy to assume she was actually looking to get rid of any evidence of foul play.

it is another one of those things in this case that depends on whether or not she is guilty.

Bit of an odd career choice if you don't like meeting new people. There's nothing to say she's on the spectrum, only evidence that suggests she likes to be in control.

 

[Luwin]

Why would she not admit to knowing what going commando means? Surely it's not that embarrassing to say not wearing underwear? And I wonder why they even picked that text exchange up?!

 

[ColourPurple]

Why would she not admit to knowing what going commando means? Surely it's not that embarrassing to say not wearing underwear? And I wonder why they even picked that text exchange up?!

I think it may be because she wanted to maintain that they were only ever friends, and the "Go commando" line suggested a sexual element. With Johnson then referring to him as her boyfriend , I wonder if there's more to come that suggests she was lying about it just being a friendship... which would then allow the prosecution to run with the theory that, if guilty, she may have been causing collapses when he was on shift, in order to try to impress and spend time with her love interest.

JMO, if guilty etc.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Well exactly, if you have a problem throwing things away, surely that would apply to bank statements too? You are either organised, scatty semi organised or a hoarder.
A semi organised person wouldn't have specific things they shred and specific things they don't.
Surely they are either on top of things or not?
Maybe I am being narrow minded here....

It’s a difference in perceived value or risk in relation to the paper she does collect in the moment it is either stored or shredded. For instance people shred bank statements because they know if anyone else finds them it’s easy to commit fraud with, if someone is presented with more personal paperwork ie love letters, birthday cards etc they may not see any reason to shred them. Don’t ask me to explain why she didn’t think it would be a good idea to shred the ho sheets though, is strange.

Bit of an odd career choice if you don't like meeting new people. There's nothing to say she's on the spectrum, only evidence that suggests she likes to be in control.

you can love kids whilst really disliking adults.
I wasn’t saying she was on the spectrum just giving an example of why some might not enjoy meeting new people, comfort zone and all that.

 

[Dotta]

Thank you all for the updates!

What a total madness!

I have simply no words except that I pity the victims' parents that they have to endure all this

JMO