UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She will of signed off the defence case statement and FGS she’s been sat in court for 8 months and incarcerated for years, she should know her case backward.
It doesn’t wash with me …. It’s just more under the bus from Letby.
MOO

I agree with the notion that she should have her defence statements well established and obviously her legal team should not be blamed for errors but that's not to say an error couldn't have occurred in such a big and overwhelming case.

One would imagine LL should have her defence and all considerations locked down after years of incarceration but being locked up doubtless comes with its own arising issues and some of them may be very severe and impeding. She probably doesn't have access to her case notes all all, never mind as if they're sitting on a library shelf in her room (cell) for her to study, and who knows where her mental health and emotions have been on a round trip to and back in the duration of that time. Plus issues of medication etc. As was first said at the beginning of the trial, LL is not the person she once was.

JMO MOO

 

[Sundial]

What does she even mean by she collects paper?
For what purpose?

To feed the pet shredder.. although it appears to have an acquired taste for bank statements and nothing else. Allegedly.

 

[katydid23]

Her refusal to acknowledge that she knows what going commando means is really interesting. I wonder if it’s because her parents are in the room? In which case, that says a lot (to me anyway) about her relationship with her parents and her upbringing. We already know they are overprotective, that she feels somewhat obligated to them (couldn’t move to NZ because of the rents), that she would often seek sympathy and validation from them (texts like we lost one last night, text telling the mum she had a needlestick even though it was ultra low risk and she knew it would cause worry). The house purchase, I highly suspect was driven by (and invested in by) the parents. No long term relationships of her own (that were reported at least, you’d have thought the press would have dug up an old boyfriend or two when the news broke initially).

It’s just, interesting. IMO.

I agree with all of the above about her feelings of potential embarrassment with her parents sitting right there. And there does seem to be an interesting family dynamic going on.

Her refusal to acknowledge was also interesting in that it shows she will lie under oath when it suits her emotionally.

It seems to be an obvious lie because of the laughing emojis she used in the messages, indicating she knew what 'commando' meant. Those messages were shown in court already.

So her credibility may have taken another hit by refusing to admit she knew what the term meant, that she was responding to by text. She simply lied ab out it under oath and then continued to lie when confronted about it. And I think that it's why Johnson kept at it with her, to get her to keep lying when it was so obviously a lie. And a lie about nothing at all, which implies her 'oath' to be truthful means little to her.

 

[Sundial]

The mind boggles…

I‘m just catching up on today‘s goings on in court and was surprised that she is now saying she collects paper (what!?). It’s gone from accidentally coming home with her to her collecting paper.

Also noted that it’s now several hundred handover sheets according to write ups with Chester Standard, BBC and ITV. Elaine Willcox also said it on Granada Reports outside court. I thought it was 257 (is it a mistake or am I missing something like it the several hundred sheets relating to 257 babies?)
—————————————————————————————————————————
A blood gas printout from Child M, along with several hundred shift handover sheets – some containing names of children she allegedly targeted – were also found in police searches.

Letby has told the court the documents would innocently “come home” in her uniform pocket at the end of her shifts and that she would “collect paper”.

Lucy Letby denies ‘hanging around’ to ‘go rooting in bin’ after resuscitation of baby

NURSE Lucy Letby has denied she “hung around” after a nursing shift to “root in a bin” for a paper towel used in the resuscitation of a baby…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Not sure if this has been mentioned already; but the “not fair” comment by LL was also reported here as the defendant blushed as she responded.
Certainly appears as though she clearly knows what it means. I wonder if there will be more to come from this in due course.
JMO

 

[katydid23]

I agree with the notion that she should have her defence statements well established and obviously her legal team should not be blamed for errors but that's not to say an error couldn't have occurred in such a big and overwhelming case.

One would imagine LL should have her defence and all considerations locked down after years of incarceration but being locked up doubtless comes with its own arising issues and some of them may be very severe and impeding. She probably doesn't have access to her case notes all all, never mind as if they're sitting on a library shelf in her room (cell) for her to study, and who knows where her mental health and emotions have been on a round trip to and back in the duration of that time. Plus issues of medication etc. As was first said at the beginning of the trial, LL is not the person she once was.

JMO MOO

As Johnson pointed out, she was sitting court when there was testimony about this agreed upon phone call to the father. She had post-it-notes which could have been given immediately to her counsel, advising them of the mistake and her refusal to accept it.

Her answer was pretty vague about why she didnt say anything at the time:

Lucy Letby now says she didn't make this phone call. Nick Johnson KC asks her why her defence team has allowed it to be 'agreed evidence' in the case. She replies "well I disagree with it now"

Nick Johnson KC: "It’s yet another account from a parent that has been agreed and you are now saying it’s untrue. Is that right?" Lucy Letby: "Yes. I have no recollection of speaking to the parents on the phone"

NJKC: "Were you sitting in court when this agreed evidence was read to the court?" LL: "Yes" NJKC: "What did you do about it?" LL: "Well with respect there’s been a lot of evidence and I’ve relied on my legal team"

NJKC: "Well we’ve seen you firing out post it notes from the dock" LL: "Which i’m entitled to do" NJKC: "Absolutely you are, that’s the point of you being here. Have you raised it as an issue? LL: "I can’t say now whether it's something i’ve raised with my legal team "
@JudithMoritz

 

[Sundial]

Her refusal to acknowledge that she knows what going commando means is really interesting. I wonder if it’s because her parents are in the room? In which case, that says a lot (to me anyway) about her relationship with her parents and her upbringing. We already know they are overprotective, that she feels somewhat obligated to them (couldn’t move to NZ because of the rents), that she would often seek sympathy and validation from them (texts like we lost one last night, text telling the mum she had a needlestick even though it was ultra low risk and she knew it would cause worry). The house purchase, I highly suspect was driven by (and invested in by) the parents. No long term relationships of her own (that were reported at least, you’d have thought the press would have dug up an old boyfriend or two when the news broke initially).

It’s just, interesting. IMO.

I feel this is a fair point imo really. A young adult relative of mine has some issues discussing their partner around their parents, to the point every time the parents are around, they instantly hang up the phone! Expressions of adoration etc to the partner are instantly hidden like an embarrassment as soon as others are in earshot. Interesting point.
Moo

 

[WaxLyrical]

Maybe she's literally not sure what it means and has been told to answer truthfully in absolutes - ie yes, no, don't know?

I can imagine that when put on the spot some people might realise phrases they've heard used and laughed about, they don't really know what they mean at all and don't know why they were laughing. Which is sort of embarrassing but explained by peer pressure and group dynamics.

Re boyfriend, I thought there was one ex who said she was very sweet and normal or something? JMO MOO

I think he was an ex-boyfriend of one of her friends? Said something along the lines of kind hearted but a bit odd, something like that.

Re the commando, I’m typically very generous to Letby. But I honestly think you’d need to be living under a rock for 25 years to not know what this phrase means, plus the laughing emojis she replied with. Granted we might not be seeing the full picture from the reporting, and if she actually said something like “I’m not 100% sure of its meaning to be honest, but I recognised it as innuendo”, then that’s fair enough.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

As Johnson pointed out, she was sitting court when there was testimony about this agreed upon phone call to the father. She had post-it-notes which could have been given immediately to her counsel, advising them of the mistake and her refusal to accept it.

Her answer was pretty vague about why she didnt say anything at the time:

Lucy Letby now says she didn't make this phone call. Nick Johnson KC asks her why her defence team has allowed it to be 'agreed evidence' in the case. She replies "well I disagree with it now"

Nick Johnson KC: "It’s yet another account from a parent that has been agreed and you are now saying it’s untrue. Is that right?" Lucy Letby: "Yes. I have no recollection of speaking to the parents on the phone"

NJKC: "Were you sitting in court when this agreed evidence was read to the court?" LL: "Yes" NJKC: "What did you do about it?" LL: "Well with respect there’s been a lot of evidence and I’ve relied on my legal team"

NJKC: "Well we’ve seen you firing out post it notes from the dock" LL: "Which i’m entitled to do" NJKC: "Absolutely you are, that’s the point of you being here. Have you raised it as an issue? LL: "I can’t say now whether it's something i’ve raised with my legal team "
@JudithMoritz

Thanks for this info, interesting that it has come *this* far and all of a sudden she's introducing this concept.

The concept that she's not been fully aware of things and has been overly trusting in her legal team to have got it right, been trustingly going along with them but suddenly sees there's at least one error.

Now she can't 'rely' on them because there's this dispute in the agreed evidence. If she truly believes that, it would be a shocking revelation after all this time.

I wonder if she's suddenly realised the implications of this case and that she's not going to walk away vindicated? Has her ego been tricking her all this time? Or is she simply trying to manipulate the court?

Can a person in her position seek to dismiss their legal defence team if such disputes arise? Is she trying to throw the case or play for time?

JMO MOO

 

[Sundial]

Sundial =1st quote/ Esther= 2nd quote



This is something I have wondered about all through the trial. IF guilty, she was doing horrid things to the victims she is charged with.
But what about the other babies? Did she do little cruel things which went unnoticed?

Like this example pointed out by Johnson----where LL was so busy texting and she needed two hands for the feeding so she put it on higher speed, for her convenience? At the expense of a preemie who would have trouble with such a fast feed?

I can’t help but agree tbh; the rooms where she’s “bored” or whatever and then you just hear of this wild constant messaging on shift. She alleged earlier if others were honest, they did the same (or words to that)- like seriously what?!! If others are honest they are messaging as erratic as this, surely the parents would have mentioned something like “staff always on their phone” by now? Imagine, a unit full of staff wondering round like zombies wildly messaging like she was, then in essence IF this is what’s caused these issues/collapses and she’s innocent; then technically almost every baby in that unit would be at risk or harmed etc.

It’s just wildly staggering and unbelievable that no matter how “bored” she was with certain parts of her role; that her phone took precedence in this way, it’s madness.
JMO

 

[Sundial]

I think he was an ex-boyfriend of one of her friends? Said something along the lines of kind hearted but a bit odd, something like that.

Re the commando, I’m typically very generous to Letby. But I honestly think you’d need to be living under a rock for 25 years to not know what this phrase means, plus the laughing emojis she replied with. Granted we might not be seeing the full picture from the reporting, and if she actually said something like “I’m not 100% sure of its meaning to be honest, but I recognised it as innuendo”, then that’s fair enough.

What I find odd about this; a lot of her comments have been “no” or “I don’t recall”, when NJ asked about the whole commando thing and then said it was her boyfriend; I was actually surprised that rather than her usual “no” response, she said it was unfair. It just seemed like he touched a bit of an nerve with this today.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I was just going over the beginning of yesterday's testimony---so she allegedly sabotaged baby M at same the time they were trying to get the blood tests sent off for the twin, baby L , who had been poisoned?

"Child L was allegedly poisoned with insulin on 9 April 2016. This happened after Letby was moved from night shifts.
As his twin’s blood sugar levels dropped dangerously Child M (also on 9 April) was harmed by having air injected into his bloodstream and came close to death. "


Sky News Updates - https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-murder-trial-latest-former-nurse-tells-court-why-she-repeatedly-searched-for-dead-babys-mother-on-facebook-12868375

Recap: Who are Children L and M?​

The prosecution is now moving on to the case of Child L - one of two twin boys.
Children L and M are twin boys who both survived an alleged murder attempt.
In their case, Letby faces two charges of attempted murder.
Child L was allegedly poisoned with insulin on 9 April 2016. This happened after Letby was moved from night shifts.
As his twin’s blood sugar levels dropped dangerously Child M (also on 9 April) was harmed by having air injected into his bloodstream and came close to death.
Just 15 minutes before his collapse he received intravenous antibiotics - from Letby or another nurse.
He was left brain damaged.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I can’t help but agree tbh; the rooms where she’s “bored” or whatever and then you just hear of this wild constant messaging on shift. She alleged earlier if others were honest, they did the same (or words to that)- like seriously what?!! If others are honest they are messaging as erratic as this, surely the parents would have mentioned something like “staff always on their phone” by now? Imagine, a unit full of staff wondering round like zombies wildly messaging like she was, then in essence IF this is what’s caused these issues/collapses and she’s innocent; then technically almost every baby in that unit would be at risk or harmed etc.

It’s just wildly staggering and unbelievable that no matter how “bored” she was with certain parts of her role; that her phone took precedence in this way, it’s madness.
JMO

It could be argued she was obsessed with her phone for some reason or another, not bored. As per any form of addiction, the compulsive mind will trick a person they're 'bored'. JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What I find odd about this; a lot of her comments have been “no” or “I don’t recall”, when NJ asked about the whole commando thing and then said it was her boyfriend; I was actually surprised that rather than her usual “no” response, she said it was unfair. It just seemed like he touched a bit of an nerve with this today.

JMO

Strange choice of word. Especially said in a court of law. Leans towards suggesting an injustice.

Together with her allegation that agreed evidence was incorrectly recorded by her own legal defence team, that's two pretty big suggestions of injustice coming from LL all in the space of one afternoon.

Worthy of note. Something has shifted. But what?

JMO MOO.

 

[katydid23]

Letby's WhatsApps appear to contradict medical records
Medical records record Lucy Letby as feeding one of the infants in her care at 8.30pm on 3 June 2016, but WhatsApp messages shown to the court dispute this.
Letby tells the court she "really can't say" how long it would have taken her to feed the babies in her care.
"You were texting your friends right through this time you were supposedly feeding this child," Mr Johnson asks.
"I don't know," Letby says quietly.
"You don't know? You didn't notice?" he says.
The court is shown a series of rapid text conversations between Letby and one of her colleagues - started by Letby three minutes after she started her shift.
Letby (7.33pm): Are you home?
The pair then begin a back-and-forth text conversation.
Her colleague then asks if Letby is in the handover. The handover would have taken place from 7.30pm.
Letby (7:58pm): [Colleague] had gone home so I had a paper handover lol
Letby (8pm): We've got a baby with haemophilia
Letby sent texts complaining about another one of her colleagues at 8.26pm and 8.29pm.
She also sent a message at 8.31pm saying one of the babies was "Slow with feed but getting there".
She sent further texts at 8.34pm and 8.38pm - despite allegedly feeding the baby at 8.30pm.
"How do you text when you do the two-handed job of feeding a child?" Mr Johnson asks.
"You can't," says Letby.
He says the only way it could have been done is if Letby fed the baby in her care very quickly.
"You think I pushed it in," says Letby.
"I do," replies Nick Johnson.
"No, I did not," says Letby.

This^^^ is one of the biggest hits LL took today, IMO.

She really got caught out and she had to admit to the court that her times on her observational notes are not accurate.
She is admitting we can not trust everything she has written .

And she is admitting we can not trust her nursing instincts, as she is more focused on trivial texts than she is on the preemies she is being paid to care for. If she did actually speed up the feed time of the baby just so she could get back to gossiping with her coworkers, it is disgusting to consider.

 

[katydid23]

Strange choice of word. Especially said in a court of law. Leans towards suggesting an injustice.

Together with her allegation that agreed evidence was incorrectly recorded by her own legal defence team, that's two pretty big suggestions of injustice coming from LL all in the space of one afternoon.

Worthy of note. Something has shifted. But what?

JMO MOO.

What has shifted? I think she is in panic mode.

Leans towards an injustice? OR maybe it leans towards her being more desperate than ever and so she is now throwing her own barrister under the bus too. Allegedly.

There is no evidence of the legal defense team 'incorrectly recording' agreed evidence. And in fact, it was testified to while Lucy was sitting in court, next to her defense team. She had plenty of chances to speak up if it was a mistake.

The father of the baby victim testified to the phone call. It is her word against his. But all she can really say is she didn't remember the call. But it had to have happened because after the call he hurried to the clinic. So it appears he was telling the truth. Allegedly.

Why is she denying it now at this late date? It doesn't even make any sense that she would know nothing about it earlier. She is just flailing about now, IMO. Calling the parents of the victims out as liars is not a good defense strategy, IMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What has shifted? I think she is in panic mode.

Leans towards an injustice? OR maybe it leans towards her being more desperate than ever and so she is now throwing her own barrister under the bus too. Allegedly.

There is no evidence of the legal defense team 'incorrectly recording' agreed evidence. And in fact, it was testified to while Lucy was sitting in court, next to her defense team. She had plenty of chances to speak up if it was a mistake.

The father of the baby victim testified to the phone call. It is her word against his. But all she can really say is she didn't remember the call. But it had to have happened because after the call he hurried to the clinic. So it appears he was telling the truth. Allegedly.

Why is she denying it now at this late date? It doesn't even make any sense that she would know nothing about it earlier. She is just flailing about now, IMO. Calling the parents of the victims out as liars is not a good defense strategy, IMO.

I agree with the panic mode suggestion and if the cross keeps up this pace and pressure of questioning, she's going to spiral more.

 

[Cluedoneit]

She might be aiming for a mistrial by throwing her legal team under a bus. She’s allowed visitors, just not legal advice, so probably knows her cross examination is not going well. If she gets a mistrial, she can get a retrial without getting on the stand next time.

 

[katydid23]

"Letby messaged a doctor colleague at 6.04am on June 15: 'Wonder if I'll find my way back into 1 today then....',"

Later she messages her colleague:

"Letby, in a Facebook message to same doctor : 'No repeat today. I've escaped being in 1, back in 3' "


what the heck?

 

[katydid23]

RE Baby N:
"The father said the baby’s condition deteriorated twice more, once when he and his partner left to get food and again when they left to seek medical advice for his partner, who was feeling unwell."

10% Evening Standard Lucy Letby hugged mother after alleged attempt to murder baby, court hears

Also:
"Court hears baby N suffered another collapse at 19:40 that evening just as the nurses were doing a handover to the night shift"
https://twitter.com/MelBarhamITV

So Baby N's first collapse happened minutes before LL's shift began.
And baby N's second collapse happened minutes after her shift ended.

Baby's N's first collapse came right after his parents left the unit to get food.
Baby N's second collapse came right after his parents left for mom's medical care.

 

[Sundial]

Strange choice of word. Especially said in a court of law. Leans towards suggesting an injustice.

Together with her allegation that agreed evidence was incorrectly recorded by her own legal defence team, that's two pretty big suggestions of injustice coming from LL all in the space of one afternoon.

Worthy of note. Something has shifted. But what?

JMO MOO.

Interesting isn’t it- weirdly that it appears she agreed with it when it was recorded, but then she claimed to prosecution; that now she doesn’t.