UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[katydid23]

In which case, her response seems reasonable to me. He's poking about in her private business. And having a joke at her expense about it to boot. Why would she be willing to play along with him? I know her 'commando' answer was ridiculous but in the context of it (in her mind) being none of his business, I can understand it.

Apart from which, it adds nothing to anything.

FWIW, I suspect DrChoc was a boyfriend in the relationship sense and I suspect this is a known quantity despite LL claiming otherwise.

And yet, if she is guilty of these alleged crimes, then she doesn't have any private business anymore. Her trial justifies people poking about in all of her communications, if so.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe the types of papers she collected the most were ones relating to anything featuring herself and Doc Choc? Handover notes with both their initial on, or his writing, or their names printed in the same list etc. Maybe she was 'collecting' indeed but not in relation to the babies? JMO MOO

She began collecting the Handovers when she was a student nurse. Actually took one home on day one.

 

[Tortoise]

Is there really anything "private" while being questioned on the stand?
What about victims of sexual abuse/rapes being shredded by Defence during trials?

Sadly, there is no such thing.

A person testifying under Oath is required to tell the truth.
If not, their credibility suffers.

JMO

Yes a murder accused doesn't have a private life so to speak. Everything is relevant; her diary, bedroom, handbag, relationships, texts, the whole caboodle. The prosecutor is entitled to probe for the truth in every statement she's made, including "I loved him as a friend", and her every action/reaction, including trying to leave the dock - and accuse her of lying. It's not unfair.

MOO

 

[esther43]

Yes. And seems she was playing on this Doc Choc emotions to show her acts of kindness directly in relation to distressing events at work. So there had to be distressing events for those style of interactions in which he praised her and offered comfort. So sick and distorted.

For months I was arguing that LL had been scapegoated for hospital failings but now I see it so clearly and vividly. JMO MOO

Well exactly, it wasn't his chocolate she was after was it?! And it does seem, from limited conversations we have seen, that what she wanted from him was intel and reassurance. But as soon as he was angling for more she was like ' I'm going to bed now'
or watching Corrie.
Whilst their were hints of her wanting to appear 'the most competent' to him, I am unsure if this was her wanting to impress him or just more confirmation seeking to diminish suspicion among the doctor team.
Once trust was established, she only wanted him at the scene during incidents, only this Dr was 'good enough'. Strange that.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

"Agitated" was the word used by the doctor who gave evidence.

A doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the court she remembered Ms Letby being "agitated" when a team of specialists from Alder Hey Hospital arrived to help with Child N's treatment.
She said: "She approached me a few times and said 'who are these people, who are these people?'.
"From working alongside the nurses and doctors at Chester, I felt that it was out of character from what I'd experienced previously in a medical emergency."
Lucy Letby 'agitated' by specialists' arrival, trial told

Her texts with doc choc that evening might give context to the reason for LL's agitation, if she had, as is alleged, been making multiple attempts to kill baby N that day, IMO


LL: 'Sat having a quiet moment and want to cry. Just mad with so many people and lack of space etc.'

Doc: 'Oh Lucy, poor little thing and you. Are you OK? Have a cry, you'll feel better for it I'm sure. You're welcome to take my car home if you're too tired to walk. I sort out picking it up in the morning. So sorry you've had a rubbish day at the end of your long run - holiday well and truly deserved.'

LL: 'I'm OK just feel like I've been running around all day and not really achieved anything positive for him. Don't want to cry in front of people here, maybe when I'm home! That's very kind re the (car) but should be OK. Have you managed to switch off at all and sleep?'

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

The whole ‘poor Lucy’ message from doc choc is slightly vomit inducing, that text would be a narcissist’s dream if guilty.

Interesting she mentions ‘lack of space’, maybe she felt like ‘her’ space had been invaded, and ‘these people’ were intruding. Which is worrying when you think about it, that team were there to help save baby N. Why would anyone be ‘mad’ when the reason for the ‘lack of space’ was because there were multiple people trying to stabilise baby N. It just doesn’t make sense to be angry or agitated. Maybe she felt she wasn’t ‘needed’, that she suddenly wasn’t in control because of all ‘these people’ taking over her space. Those messages are a little glimpse into how she thinks and IMO it’s the opposite of how most of us would when a child’s life is at stake…

MOO

 

[katydid23]

A fair point, we could also assume that it’s a valid point (poking around in her private business) because we could question; is she lying about the whole “loved like a close friend” thing and was there more to this potential boyfriend/love that triggered the need (if guilty) to have him around? Showboating so to speak.

That said it will be interesting if we will hear “why” it’s necessary to find out if he was just a friend or not. Is there more relevance on this to the trial or is he trying to embarrass her or exposure her further as a liar- or a combination of all these factors.

JMO

I think more info about their bond or relationship will be coming up soon as he was pretty involved helping her after she was forced off the unit.

And also he was very close to her during babies O,P and Q's cases playing out.

 

[katydid23]

Here is what we will probably hearing more about today:

Triplets O and P

I'm back at Manchester Crown Court for the trial of nurse Lucy Letby. Today we'll be moving onto the case of Child O - who Ms Letby is accused of murdering in June 2016. She denies all charges

Manchester Crown Court has previously heard that Child O was in good condition and stable up until the afternoon of 23 June when he suffered a "remarkable deterioration" and died.

The court has heard that Child O was one of three triplet brothers born at the Countess of Chester Hospital on 21 June. The prosecution say Ms Letby murdered Child O and his brother Child P on 23 June and 24 June respectively.

Mother's Statement

A statement from the mother of the triplets has just been read. She recalls on 23 June that she was told by doctors Child O's "needed a little help to breathe, so a tube had been put down his throat". She went down to the unit thereafter

She said 'By the time I got there, it was a scene of chaos. The staff appeared to be in a state of panic, and it didn't seem controlled at all'

The mother said her son was 'swollen all over his body' and that doctors were 'struggling to get injections into his veins, so eventually injected directly into the bone'

The mother said a senior doctor eventually told her 'things weren’t looking good' and if 'he did manage to survive he would have brain damage, so it might be best he didn’t survive' Child O passed away 5pm. The mother said it came 'like a bolt of the blue'

The mother said in her statement that she was 'devastated' and didn't sleep that night. She said the following day, a midwife came to get her as Child O's brother, Child P was 'really poorly'

The mother said when she got down to the unit it was 'it was like déjà vu', she said 'everyone was running around again, it looked chaotic'

Due to having a c-section, the mum was in a wheelchair so she sat outside the nursery room. She said she noticed one of the doctors outside the room 'sitting at a computer desk googling how to do what looked like a relatively simple medical procedure' on Child P

She said 'naturally this alarmed me'. She said Child P 'looked very similar' to how Child O had looked the previous day

Eventually a consultant arrived from Arrowe Park Hospital to help with Child P's treatment, the mother said she 'felt reassured' by his presence as he was 'calm whereas everyone else was in a panic'

Eventually it was decided resuscitation of Child P should be stopped and he was pronounced dead that afternoon.

The third brother was transferred, at the parents request, to another hospital that day

 

[Tortoise]

The whole ‘poor Lucy’ message from doc choc is slightly vomit inducing, that text would be a narcissist’s dream if guilty.

Interesting she mentions ‘lack of space’, maybe she felt like ‘her’ space had been invaded, and ‘these people’ were intruding. Which is worrying when you think about it, that team were there to help save baby N. Why would anyone be ‘mad’ when the reason for the ‘lack of space’ was because there were multiple people trying to stabilise baby N. It just doesn’t make sense to be angry or agitated. Maybe she felt she wasn’t ‘needed’, that she suddenly wasn’t in control because of all ‘these people’ taking over her space. Those messages are a little glimpse into how she thinks and IMO it’s the opposite of how most of us would when a child’s life is at stake…

MOO

To be honest, if she's guilty, she might have just felt thwarted because they turned up, taking away her ability to be alone with baby, and saved his life.

 

[katydid23]

Father's Evidence by Video

The court is now being played a video interview with the father of the triplets on the events of June 2016

In the video the father recalled that there was 'definitely swelling' on Child O, and compared his stomach to 'ET'. He could not recall why. He also pointed to his hands, he says there were 'bright blue' veins. He said he could 'see bright blue all over'

He recalled the scene for Child P was 'worse than the day before' and said it was 'pandemonium'

Electronic Evidence

Cheshire Police intelligence analyst Kate Tyndall is no in the witness box. She'll take the court through sequencing evidence, first for Child O and then Child P - essentially the chronology of what happened

We've just been shown messages between Ms Letby and a colleague, who cannot be named for legal reasons, sent on June 21 2016. Ms Letby was in Ibiza at the time - the pair are discussing her holiday and what was happening at Chester

Ms Letby is back in work after her holiday to Ibiza on 23 June. In a message to a colleague, sent on the 22 June, Ms Letby says she will 'probably be back in with a bang lol'

 

[Tortoise]

I think more info about their bond or relationship will be coming up soon as he was pretty involved helping her after she was forced off the unit.

And also he was very close to her during babies O,P and Q's cases playing out.

If she is found guilty -

I think, because he trusted her, she knew he wouldn't be looking at anything that was happening to the babies as suspicious.

She developed a friendship with Dr Ventress too.

JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

Today will be very interesting … buckle up all.

 

[Lammergeier]

I actually think she might not be lying about not knowing what going commando means. She replied with laughing emojis rather than anything more specific, which is what you would do if you knew it was some kind of joke but didn’t really know what it meant. We know she had a cutesy wutesy diary and living space with cuddly toys, and that she‘s consistently awkward and uncomfortable discussing her relationship with doc choc. She could really be that sheltered, but it would suggest she had a very unusual adolescence/young adulthood.

 

[katydid23]

So we just spent a lot of time looking at Baby N. And we saw that LL came through the maternity ward card swipe early, before her shift on June 15th. And Baby N was assaulted, allegedly, the very beginning of LL"s shift. And then again at the very end. And after that shift, LL went on a vacation until June 23rd.

Allegedly, Ms Letby murdered Child O and his brother Child P on 23 June and 24 June respectively.The day she returned to the unit 'with a bang.'

During her vacation there were no sudden unexpected collapses on the unit. There were two collapse on the day she left for her vacation. And two deaths, of 2 triplets, on the very day that she returned.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I actually think she might not be lying about not knowing what going commando means. She replied with laughing emojis rather than anything more specific, which is what you would do if you knew it was some kind of joke but didn’t really know what it meant. We know she had a cutesy wutesy diary and living space with cuddly toys, and that she‘s consistently awkward and uncomfortable discussing her relationship with doc choc. She could really be that sheltered, but it would suggest she had a very unusual adolescence/young adulthood.

I agree. Personally, if I didn't already know what 'going commando' meant, I'd guess it means 'going ballistic' or doing something forceful. It's not the sort of thing one can guess. However, would she not have searched the term?

 

[Tortoise]

I actually think she might not be lying about not knowing what going commando means. She replied with laughing emojis rather than anything more specific, which is what you would do if you knew it was some kind of joke but didn’t really know what it meant. We know she had a cutesy wutesy diary and living space with cuddly toys, and that she‘s consistently awkward and uncomfortable discussing her relationship with doc choc. She could really be that sheltered, but it would suggest she had a very unusual adolescence/young adulthood.

She's very direct in her communications. I would have expected her to say 'what's that?' rather than pretending she knew it was a joke and laughing. In fact the number of laughing emojis suggests she knew it was a very funny joke. IMO

She also lived away from home, went to uni, had holidays abroad with friends, and watched Grey's Anatomy and Love Island.

I don't see her being sheltered. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I think NJ will be talking more about Dr Choc today. Here are there texts between them during the period of time between the deaths of Baby O and P. This is the night that she came home after O passed:

Triplets O and P

Prosecution evidence, March 8th 2023, Day 69 - Tweets https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Electronic Evidence cont.

We're back after a short break for lunch. Court continuing to be shown sequencing evidence for the case of Child O (these included prescriptions, door swipe data, messages between Ms Letby and others etc)

A nursing note from 23 June, recorded at 20:51 by Ms Letby, is being shown to court. It summarises Child O's deterioration and what happened with parents after (being taken to family room to be with him)

Shortly after a doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons, messaged Ms Letby asking if she was okay - she responded 'think so, just finishing my notes, can't wait to get home'

The doctor asks her if she is going to vote in the Brexit referendum on 23 June 2016, 'no can't face that' she says

To another colleague, Ms Letby says - with a sad emoji - 'I want to be in Ibiza', the nurse had just got back from a holiday there before the two boys died

The nursing colleague says 'I bet you don't want to go back in tomorrow', Ms Letby says 'I do and I don't' think good to go back in and talk about it'

Court continuing to be shown messages between Ms Letby and colleagues sent that evening. In one message a doctor, who can't be named for legal reasons, tells Ms Letby 'we do work well together' with a winking emoji

The messages between the doctor and Ms Letby are after midnight 23 June (into 24 June) when both had finished their shifts. The doctor had comforted the nurse after the death of Child O and both were reflecting on the day

Ms Letby apologises for 'blubbering', the doctor says that is 'normal for someone who cares about the babies' being cared for

The pair wish each other goodnight around 1.25am and then he messages her again that morning asking how she slept and letting her know that a medical director has been on ward

The court is shown an incident report, filled out by Ms Letby on June 30, which related to Child O's collapse and death on 23 June. It states that 'resources not available on unit' to deal with resus

She said that 'staff obtained equipment from children's ward' and that there was a 'delay in this happening due to staff being needed for infant care needs'

Earlier the court heard in a statement from the mother of the triplets that she was told 'if we delivered it would be unlikely that we would stay at Chester as there wouldn’t be enough room for three neonates all at once'

She was told they could end up at Birmingham or Bristol hospital and were told they would 'only stay at Chester if there was sufficient space for all three babies and adequate staffing to care for them'

 

[katydid23]

Lucy Letby Text Messages - Child P

Ahead of the shift a doctor, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, messaged Letby: “Are you OK? It’s rubbish not to sleep well in the middle of 3 long days. Hope your day goes OK.”

Letby replied: “Hmm maybe. I’ll be watching them both (Child P and the surviving triplet) like a hawk.

“I’m OK. Just don’t want to be here really. Hoping I may get the new admissions.”

ITV https://www.itv.com/news/granada/20...f-gas-found-in-baby-allegedly-killed-by-nurse
Chester Standard Lucy Letby trial: ‘Unusual’ amount of gas detected in baby

 

[CS2C]

Any estimate on how much longer Letby is going to be on the stand ?
I am tempted to drive up for tomorrow's sitting.

 

[Lammergeier]

I agree. Personally, if I didn't already know what 'going commando' meant, I'd guess it means 'going ballistic' or doing something forceful. It's not the sort of thing one can guess. However, would she not have searched the term?

Maybe she wouldn’t if she could guess from the context that it was something sexual and she wanted to avoid sexual stuff. Which also means she wouldn’t directly ask the friend what it was (plus IMO she’s the type who doesn’t want to admit she doesn’t know something!). Whether she knows what it is or not she does seem to clam up as soon as someone starts implying she has sexual thoughts…

 

[katydid23]

Maybe she wouldn’t if she could guess from the context that it was something sexual and she wanted to avoid sexual stuff. Which also means she wouldn’t directly ask the friend what it was (plus IMO she’s the type who doesn’t want to admit she doesn’t know something!). Whether she knows what it is or not she does seem to clam up as soon as someone starts implying she has sexual thoughts…

She could have googled it on her phone and found out in 20 seconds.