UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Sweeper2000]

Sorry to ask this so late in the day but can someone remind me were any of the deceased babies given autopsies or scanned (if was a thing a that time) by the coroner's office?

All bar one, which was child E. parents didn’t request one.

 

[Becci]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed; sub judice - material not presented at trial>


A meeting of a consultants was held on June 29, 2016, the court heard.

Dr Jayaram said: “After a number of further unusual, unexplained and inexplicable events on the neo-natal unit the whole consultant body sat down and said ‘we really need to work out what is going on here’.

He said that “one thing that came up in our discussion” was air embolism – when gas bubbles enter a vein or artery and can block blood supply.

Dr Jayaram said it prompted him that evening to conduct a literature search in which he found a research paper which described the effects of air embolism.

He said: “I remember sitting on my sofa at home with the iPad and reading that description, and the physical chill that went down my spine because it fitted with what we were seeing.”

Dr Jayaram emailed colleagues a link to the research paper the next day.

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor tells of shock at possible baby deaths cause

A DOCTOR said a “chill went down my spine” when he found a possible explanation for numerous collapses of babies, the murder trial of Lucy Letby…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

July 2015 child A's inquest

Dr Jayaram said: “I would say it has not… I remember reading this paper for the very first time and feeling really quite cold and worried. It is a matter of regret for me I didn’t mention it to the coroner at the time.”

Consultant tells trial skin marks ‘didn’t fit with anything he’d seen’

Nurse Lucy Letby denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Sorry if it's been shown i ain't read the rest of the thread just yet

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

There is a podcast called Mother’s Guilt about the Kathleen Folbigg case in Australia which has an episode dedicated to her diaries and explains the trauma response in relation to the entries. Folbigg was convicted (although pardoned 20 years into her sentence) of killing her four children and diary entries similar to the comment made by LL were used as evidence. A psychologist specialising in trauma explained how women may internalise their guilt for the death of an infant and express it as suggesting that they are responsible in some way. Highly recommend the podcast too.

Isn’t that where the infant is the woman’s own child though?

Because I totally understand it in that context. It’s the same reason why parents who have a child who goes missing or is murdered should not agree to undergo lie detector tests because they are likely to fail questions such as “ is it your fault your child is missing/dead” or “ did you have anything to do with your child going Missing/dying?”

Parents naturally feel like it is their responsibility to protect their child against any harm, and when harm does befall the child, even if the parent has nothing to do with it, they will often be consumed with feelings of guilt for failing to stop whatever hurt the child, leading them to give responses to lie detector tests which suggest deception.

 

[Jayney404]

I think ll was drifting off in her defence opening statement-

"We do not suggest for one moment the doctors and nurses did anything other than the best they could’ - BM

Other than provide suboptimal care in numerous cases, ignore raw sewage on the ward, and conspire to pin a series of murders on LL.

Slight discord between opening statement and evidence given…..

JMO if guilty

 

[ColourPurple]

July 2015 child A's inquest

Dr Jayaram said: “I would say it has not… I remember reading this paper for the very first time and feeling really quite cold and worried. It is a matter of regret for me I didn’t mention it to the coroner at the time.”

Consultant tells trial skin marks ‘didn’t fit with anything he’d seen’

Nurse Lucy Letby denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Sorry if it's been shown i ain't read the rest of the thread just yet

It was 29 June 2016 that air embolism was discussed.

ETA I think not mentioning the rash in medical notes or to the coroner (and possibly the association they' had seen with LL being present) is the matter of regret he's referring to

ETA2-" Baby A's inquest was in October 2016 so the inquest was after the air embolism was mentioned in June 2016, so he may have been referring to regretting not mentioning the research too but the first time air embolism was brought up was still June 2016.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think ll was drifting off in her defence opening statement-

"We do not suggest for one moment the doctors and nurses did anything other than the best they could’ - BM

Other than provide suboptimal care in numerous cases, ignore raw sewage on the ward, and conspire to pin a series of murders on LL.

Slight discord between opening statement and evidence given…..

JMO if guilty

Is this BM trying to back pedal against potential claims that LL has *potentially* made vexatious, malicious, slanderous statements in a law court that could damage the reputation of individual doctors and nurses as well as the NHS as a whole? Is that even 'a thing' in law?

Can a person go on record making untrue allegations against others in order to defend oneself?

JMO MOO

 

[Jayney404]

Is this BM trying to back pedal against potential claims that LL has *potentially* made vexatious, malicious, slanderous statements in a law court that could damage the reputation of individual doctors and nurses as well as the NHS as a whole? Is that even 'a thing' in law?

Can a person go on record making untrue allegations against others in order to defend oneself?

JMO MOO

This was his opening address, she then went on to make her ludicrous allegations.

I agree entirely though she’s made some very significant claims against several senior individuals now. Surely these individuals have the right to defend themselves? Equally surely there is a burden of proof that would need to be reached to use this as a defence?
If guilty IMO

 

[IrisAtwood65]

Isn’t that where the infant is the woman’s own child though?

Because I totally understand it in that context. It’s the same reason why parents who have a child who goes missing or is murdered should not agree to undergo lie detector tests because they are likely to fail questions such as “ is it your fault your child is missing/dead” or “ did you have anything to do with your child going Missing/dying?”

Parents naturally feel like it is their responsibility to protect their child against any harm, and when harm does befall the child, even if the parent has nothing to do with it, they will often be consumed with feelings of guilt for failing to stop whatever hurt the child, leading them to give responses to lie detector tests which suggest deception.

Yes.It is. I would guess that there will be significant psychological differences between maternal guilty feelings and the feelings of a nurse accused of murder, but it did make me pause for thought.

 

[ColourPurple]

Is this BM trying to back pedal against potential claims that LL has *potentially* made vexatious, malicious, slanderous statements in a law court that could damage the reputation of individual doctors and nurses as well as the NHS as a whole? Is that even 'a thing' in law?

Can a person go on record making untrue allegations against others in order to defend oneself?

JMO MOO

I can only think of something vaguely similar in the Ian Stewart trial (Helen Bailey). He accused two mystery men called Nick and Joe of kidnapping and murdering Helen. There was a massive moment in the trial where the prosecution introduced two of his friends called Nick and Joe into court, as the descriptions he'd given of the mystery Nick and Joe fitted his two friends. So he hadn't directly accused them but he had accused two imaginary people called Nick and Joe, who just happened to look the same as his mates Nick and Joe!

Mr Trimmer asked: "The people called Nick and Joe are modelled on people you know, aren't they? You know people called Nick and Joe from your time at Bassingbourn. Do you know someone called Joe Cippullo?"<

"Yes, he's a bowler," Stewart replied.

"And Nick Cook?" asked Mr Trimmer.

"Yes, he's my next-door neighbour," Stewart replied.

His trial had previously heard that Joe was a smartly dressed, grey-haired man with olive skin and a foreign accent.

Then, Mr Trimmer said: "They are both here so you can have a plain look atthem."

A small, smartly dressed Italian man with short hair was brought into thecourtroom, joined by a taller, greying man in a suit.

"You recognise them, do you, Mr Stewart?" he was asked.

"Yes, it's Nick and Joe," he replied.

The pair were then escorted out of the room, with Stewart adding: "Those two who walked in don't know each other at all, they are in totally differentcircles."

Mr Trimmer said: "In your head they are people known as Nick and Joe, aren't they? They are people that you had as part of an aide-memoire in your head."

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-02-13/drama-in-court-as-prosecution-in-helen-bailey-murder-case-produces-nick-and-joe

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Is it correct that court is sitting tomorrow without the jury present, but members of the public are allowed to be there? Then defence will continue Wednesday? Really curious to find out what, if any witnesses BM will present…

 

[Kemug]

I really, I mean really don't think it was BM's idea for her to take the stand.

But he could not influence her decision - it was her gamble.
And only hers.

JMO

Perhaps he should have begged her to take the stand, and then she would have refused to - because she doesn't like taking orders, does she. JMO

 

[Jayney404]

He adds in his opening address

‘You won't get your answers [to what Letby is like] through seeing her in the dock’.

I think he knew she wasn’t going to present well and was warming the jury up to it. Don’t look at what she’s like in the dock she’s really normal outside of court promise!

Moo if guilty JMO

 

[Kemug]

Yes sewage backing up in the sluice, colleagues not washing their hands on re-entry to the ward and colleagues presenting with contagious conditions (conjunctivitis) around neonates didn’t warrant datix reporting. But once suspicion arises suddenly it’s incredibly important to report this open port event….

Yet another conincidence in a series of coincidences I guess….

IMO If guilty etc

Call me simple, but I would have thought that if staff were finding themselves washing their hands in sewage, and walking on it, they would have 1) noticed it, and 2) reported it. Maybe gone on strike even.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I’ve been wondering if Ben Myers is going to put either one or both of LL’s parents on the stand as character witnesses .

If he doesn’t have any of his own medical experts, then it might be done to try to get the jury to see LL in a more sympathetic light. Whether LL is guilty or not, her parents are undoubtedly innocent and I imagine would be incredibly emotional and sympathetic on the witness stand.

It would be quite a calculated move, but it may be to at least try to balance the picture of the multiple grieving parents of the babies concerned with the grieving parents of the accused.

Assuming of course that there is no danger of her parents revealing any skeletons under cross examination which Ben doesn’t want to be be revealed ….

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Call me simple, but I would have thought that if staff were finding themselves washing their hands in sewage, and walking on it, they would have 1) noticed it, and 2) reported it. Maybe gone on strike even.

There is probably a grain of truth in the allegation but it has been exaggerated on the stand.

For example, I could believe there was a bit of a leak from a pipe in the corner of a room , whereas a gushing coming from the sinks which was allowed to persist for more than a couple of hours without the whole unit being closed and the patients shipped out to another hospital, I find far less plausible.

 

[Kemug]

You may be right, but it might be really cruel for her parents, they are probably only just holding it together as it is.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Personally I don't think it would add any value to bring what surely must be the highly distressed parents onto the stand, unless they are there to answer to statements or evidence gathered in the building of this case. My heart goes out to them but I can't imagine the jury would see anything they have to say as fair and impartial when they must be in a state of shock and terror. JMO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

You may be right, but it might be really cruel for her parents, they are probably only just holding it together as it is.

I agree, obviously they would have to want to/be willing to give testimony. But I imagine they would do anything if they thought it would help their only child avoid a life sentence.

 

[Tortoise]

Is it correct that court is sitting tomorrow without the jury present, but members of the public are allowed to be there? Then defence will continue Wednesday? Really curious to find out what, if any witnesses BM will present…

I'm thinking maybe the prison psychologist who diagnosed her with PTSD?

Or something to do with the blood test for baby L. I've never really understood from the reporting what that issue is about.

 

[Tortoise]

Episode 39, 'Homicidal activities'

www.mailplus.co.uk

Copy of Episode 39, 'Homicidal activities'​

In this episode Caroline and Liz explain what Lucy Letby said when questioned by the prosecution about Babies K to Q.