UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Kemug]

I think that the chances of Doc Chocs wife not knowing about this at this point are close to zero!

I wonder if he tried to convince her that he was in fact "spying" on her, following suspicions. Well, it's worth a try.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

12:59

Were you playing daft in your police interview, Letby asked​

The court was told that in her police interview Lucy Letby said she didn't know what the dangers of injecting air were.
She says now that she meant she didn't know the exact pathological danger, but did know that ultimately it would end in death.
Nick Johnson KC: "Were you playing daft?"
Lucy Letby: "No, it’s something every nurse would know."
Nick Johnson KC: "Why didn’t you say something?"
Lucy Letby: "I know the ultimate outcome would be death - how that would appear in terms of symptoms for a baby - I don’t know."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65602988/page/2

The way this is worded IMO is not much different to her saying she doesn’t know what AE is in police interview. If this reporting is correct and accurate then she’s said she didn’t know what the dangers were, to me the danger would be air embolism. If you’ve been taught about the risks of injecting air then you’d have learnt about why it’s dangerous. IMO this is LL back tracking.

She said on the stand she knew the outcome would be death - to me IMO surely death is a very big ‘danger. If she knew it would cause death then IMO she knew what the danger was and suggests she may have also known that it would cause an AE’. So it’s pretty much an admission that she wasn’t being honest in the police interview MOO. Unless I’m reading in between the lines with that. By the sounds of it the police weren’t asking her what the symptoms were, they were asking if she knew it was dangerous? She denies knowing. Then she says on the stand ‘it’s something every nurse would know’

MOO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

It took quite a while to clear up as it was about half way through the trial it was clarified, I think. Basically, she said something to the effect of not knowing what the specific symptoms and effects might be, rather than not know what it was. She did say that every nurse knew it was dangerous.

From Tortoise’s post above she claimed in her police interview not to know the dangers of injecting air. But on the stand she says she knew it could cause death and that is ‘something every nurse would know’. The danger of injecting air would be it can cause death IMO, yet she claimed not to know in her interview from what was reported by CS.

IMO any nurse who deals with lines and administering treatment via IV NJ etc will know the danger of accidentally administering air is it can cause air embolism which in turn can cause death. Baring in mind we also heard LL had done her intensive care training just prior to baby A’s death that allegedly included learning about air embolism.. JMO. Air embolism is caused by injecting air, air embolism is the danger of injecting air which can cause death, LL claimed not to know this in police interview but contradicted herself on the stand IMO. From the updates police weren’t asking about the symptoms of air embolism, just about the danger of injecting air…
Unless I’m reading the reporting about this part of testimony completely wrong. JMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Didn't she also say it would be very difficult to push air through the line?

She did indeed, which left me wondering ‘how does she know if it would be difficult or not?’ IMO it could be suggested that she knows it’s difficult because she’s tried it before, maybe there is some resistance felt in the syringe when trying to push it through? Is that what she means by difficult?
MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

And as the only defence witness he might to quite well from the inevitable plethora of documentaries, films, etc for years to come.

Was he just a plumber or a general fix-it/maintenance man? I wonder if he ever had cause to repair shredders?

Plumbers don't usually touch electrics but he could be multi-skilled, we need to know more. So many questions.

I'm pretty keen to know if anything was written on the paper towel forced into the waste pipe and cannot believe no-one asked him this.

 

[JosieJo]

From Tortoise’s post above she claimed in her police interview not to know the dangers of injecting air. But on the stand she says she knew it could cause death and that is ‘something every nurse would know’. The danger of injecting air would be it can cause death IMO, yet she claimed not to know in her interview from what was reported by CS.

IMO any nurse who deals with lines and administering treatment via IV NJ etc will know the danger of accidentally administering air is it can cause air embolism which in turn can cause death. Baring in mind we also heard LL had done her intensive care training just prior to baby A’s death that allegedly included learning about air embolism.. JMO. Air embolism is caused by injecting air, air embolism is the danger of injecting air which can cause death, LL claimed not to know this in police interview but contradicted herself on the stand IMO. From the updates police weren’t asking about the symptoms of air embolism, just about the danger of injecting air…
Unless I’m reading the reporting about this part of testimony completely wrong. JMO

I agree especially as she had done additional training.

Most nurses would know that air in the blood stream would in basic terms block arteries and interfere with blood flow.
Any nurse would then know that blocking arteries could cause a collapse or death

Imo whatever the wording she was distancing herself

 

[Marantz4250b]

So, I forget now, are we back in court for closing speeches today or is that next week now?

 

[JosieJo]

Plumbers don't usually touch electrics but he could be multi-skilled, we need to know more. So many questions.

I'm pretty keen to know if anything was written on the paper towel forced into the waste pipe and cannot believe no-one asked him this.

The hospital I worked at they were multiskilled maintenance technicians...plumbing electrics etc I think that's the rule of thumb across nhs

 

[notsure]

So, I forget now, are we back in court for closing speeches today or is that next week now?

From yesterday's report, it looks like they could be back in today (unless he meant next Thursday):

11:40am
The trial judge says he has to discuss his directions of law with the prosecution and defence before he can deliver them to the jury.

He says those will likely be presented to the jury on Thursday, and the jury will not be present in court 'for very long'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 14 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

But that assumes that evidence existed in the first place.

He has been through the babies' histories and there were no other unexpected collapses, according to the treating doctors and the experts. Maybe there was one for baby I which Dr Bohin flagged I think, but one desaturation looked at over the course of a year doesn't really make a case.

I think there have been quite a few critical parents.

JMO

Yes, but not necessarily for any babies she was charged with. I thought there might have been other babies that had collapsed. But as you say, there might not have been any. Yet Meyers did seem to say there were others that were not included. I guess there were not, or they would hav been brought up already.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

From yesterday's report, it looks like they could be back in today (unless he meant next Thursday):

11:40am
The trial judge says he has to discuss his directions of law with the prosecution and defence before he can deliver them to the jury.

He says those will likely be presented to the jury on Thursday, and the jury will not be present in court 'for very long'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 14 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The live feed on that recap suggests the closing speeches aren’t happening until next week, as that’s when their live coverage begins again.

 

[Kemug]

I recall that way way back near the beginning of this thread I wondered if maybe LL had a history of questionable actions, eg drowning a kitten when a child. I am still wondering.

 

[notsure]

I recall that way way back near the beginning of this thread I wondered if maybe LL had a history of questionable actions, eg drowning a kitten when a child. I am still wondering.

As an adult, she appears to have been fond of animals. I recall photos of her cats being shown, as well as photos or cards from her adoring godchildren, so she must have come across as kind at some point. IMO

 

[katydid23]

I recall that way way back near the beginning of this thread I wondered if maybe LL had a history of questionable actions, eg drowning a kitten when a child. I am still wondering.

I don't think we are going to hear any thing like that in childhood. But I do think we may hear that she was kind of a drama queen, kind of a hypochondriac as a child.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, but not necessarily for any babies she was charged with. I thought there might have been other babies that had collapsed. But as you say, there might not have been any. Yet Meyers did seem to say there were others that were not included. I guess there were not, or they would hav been brought up already.

He was only referring to the babies she is charged with when he spoke about the prosecution's chart, and has never made any claims of other babies being left out of the prosecution's case to put LL in the frame.

I think when he said "The chart does not show 'other collapses or desaturations' for the children when Letby is not present" some people have wrongly assumed he was talking about other babies.

Dr Evans has said he was not aware of the name Lucy Letby until she was arrested, so the selection criteria for suspicious events was made purely on medical facts. This has been demonstrated several times throughout his testimony.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Did she not? Maybe a mod could edit my post from last night and cut that bit out. I didn’t realise that she hadn’t said that in her police interview! I remember quite a big deal being made about that at the time too.

Some of the reporters tweets worded it that way, that she didnt know what AE was. Then later, I think maybe in one of the podcasts, she apparently said she didn't understand how they work. Or somethng to that affect.

 

[Tortoise]

Some of the reporters tweets worded it that way, that she didnt know what ASE was. Then later, I think maybe in one of the podcasts, she apparently said she didn't understand how they work. Or somethng to that affect.

There was also her text

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue

Mr Johnson pulls up a Datix form, that Ms Letby recorded on 30 June 2016. On this form she noted that a 'bung was open' on one of the lines for a child, JE (not part of this case). She said in a message to a colleague on 5 July that this could have caused air embolism


11:21 AM · Jun 9, 2023

 

[Penny68]

LL was initially arrested on suspicion in 2018. Then rearrested in June 2019, eventually finally rearrested again in November 2020.

I still think about her first arrest. She of course was allowed to go home afterwards.

Surely as she has intelligence even for her job, she (if guilty) would have thought maybe she will be questioned again in the near future.

So why did she not think about 'shredding' or even burning all the 257 handover sheets, along with the post-it notes that had been found between her home and her parents home.

Of course it is a blessing she didn't as those have been mentioned and shown in court.

But had this been me I would have been thinking along those lines and get to destroy anything that I would think would go against me if I was questioned again, or a search might be arranged for my home.

 

[Becci]

A barrister can only present a theory of their case in opening speech and closing arguments. He can't put a table he has created, with a member of his team, on the witness stand. What he was saying was that the prosecution's table -

"does not show the 'individual health of the children concerned, or any problems they had from birth, or the risks, or the course of treatment and/or problems encountered by said treatment'.
The chart does not show 'other collapses or desaturations' for the children when Letby is not present.

12:44pm

The table does not show 'shortcomings in care' which 'could have impacted the health of the baby', or 'how busy the unit was', or 'what Letby was actually doing at the time of the event', My Myers tells the court.

12:44pm

It doesn't show 'whether Lucy Letby was anywhere near to a child at the time of the event' or if there was 'a problem which could be traced before Letby's arrival'."
Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

All of these elements he has examined, rigorously, with the doctors concerned with the care of the babies, the medical experts, and also the defendant herself to try to show she was busy elsewhere. It's a bit much, IMO, to blame him for not making an effort - he has thoroughly prodded and poked every witness, accused them of being less than capable, attacked their practices, tried to show biases and unprofessionalism, painted a picture of an unsanitary, understaffed unit in chaos, and put the prosecution to proof over every claim, quite formidably, IMO.

He is not to blame for whether there aren't medical experts of standing who would give a different opinion, or opinions which wouldn't withstand cross-examination, or for not putting up experts who would undermine his case because they agree with the prosecution. He is a silk and he knows not to lead his case into trouble, which he could so easily do by putting up certain less than credible individuals, or cranks of the internet realm, who have not paid any attention to the evidence.

If he were to present a chart in his closing arguments, it would have to be the prosecution's chart with Letby's name rubbed out because their case is that she didn't cause the events. I doubt we will see one.

MOO

Yeah true, he did good in his cross.

 

[Tortoise]

LL was initially arrested on suspicion in 2018. Then rearrested in June 2019, eventually finally rearrested again in November 2020.

I still think about her first arrest. She of course was allowed to go home afterwards.

Surely as she has intelligence even for her job, she (if guilty) would have thought maybe she will be questioned again in the near future.

So why did she not think about 'shredding' or even burning all the 257 handover sheets, along with the post-it notes that had been found between her home and her parents home.

Of course it is a blessing she didn't as those have been mentioned and shown in court.

But had this been me I would have been thinking along those lines and get to destroy anything that I would think would go against me if I was questioned again, or a search might be arranged for my home.

They were seized by police. On her second arrest they found a few more I believe, in her garage.

Her phone contents would have been downloaded then too.

I think her shredder must have been seized too, unless they just took the contents away for examination.