UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Marantz4250b]

Thanks so much for listing all this. I appreciate it.
Definitely made me see what everyone was talking about. The “I don’t know what embolism is” in the police interview but filling in a datix form about it earlier is just bizarre. Why would you say you don’t know what it is.

The "I don't know what air embolism is" statement turned out not to be true, if I recall correctly. It was incorrect reporting of something along the lines of ".....I don't know what the clinical signs of air embolism would be..." or words to that effect.

 

[Music2022]

The "I don't know what air embolism is" statement turned out not to be true, if I recall correctly. It was incorrect reporting of something along the lines of ".....I don't know what the clinical signs of air embolism would be..." or words to that effect.

Oh that makes more sense for her to say it. Suppose it’s up to a doctor to recognise the symptoms.

 

[Kemug]

I think two.

I don't think they'll want to look inappropriately hasty. JMO

Could being too hasty ever be grounds for appeal?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Oh that makes more sense for her to say it. Suppose it’s up to a doctor to recognise the symptoms.

Yes, that's my take on it. I'd be quite surprised if a nurse would recognise it as it is incredibly rare. Even Dr J didn't really recognise it until he found the paper on it online.

 

[katydid23]

I'm not sure we do actually do plea bargaining here, though. At least not in the way you see in US cases whereby it's done essentially as a way to avoid the expense of a trial. Or, as it appears to me - the accused gets threatened with a much more severe crime which isn't applicable to the facts and intended to scare them into pleading to a slightly lesser one. Which, to my mind at least, is not "justice" at all.

Yes, you can put forward certain defences, such as the various diminished responsibility or "not guilty by reason of insanity" ones, and suchlike. There are also some statutory considerations as to sentence for an early guilty plea but these are set in law and aren't the same as offering a plea to a lesser crime.

Oh here we go.... ...only the US is full of Injustice.....

 

[Marantz4250b]

Could being too hasty ever be grounds for appeal?

Don't see how it could as you could never adduce evidence to that effect because the jury deliberations are secret. I guess there's probably a procedure for a court to allow jurors to speak but I don't see what that would produce as regards evidence for an appeal.

 

[NeverPersonal]

Hypothetically, if guilty I would have asked my solicitor to bargain a plea in exchange for time served in a secure psychiatric facility. Although not amazing, conditions there would be much better than a high security prison. Then again, I’m not really a gambler, and if Guilty, Letby managed to gamble and win for at least a year, much likely far longer.

I can personally confirm as a family member who has seen the high security psychiatric facility... it is not better, and in many ways, it is worse. Trust me.

 

[katydid23]

Sounds far-fetched when you put it like that, IMO.

It does sound far fetched, but so does the thought that someone attacked tiny newborns, some were attacked 2, 3 or 4 times before they died.

 

[NeverPersonal]

All of the below is in my opinion only, allegedly, etc etc. This person is innocent until proven guilty.

Man. Wow. That "defense". If you could call it that. I think her lawyer threw in the towel. Over a hundred days hearing about babies being murdered, EVERY single day? Being the person in charge of standing up for an accused baby murderer for 100+ days? Man needs a vacation. <modsnip: Nicknames or derogatory terms for individuals are not allowed>

I have never looked into her childhood and idk if she was born without a conscience or if something triggered that. I lean toward the first. I'd like to hear of people's experiences with her before her nursing "career".

The documented evidence we've seen of her severe, constant online obsessions with not only her coworkers so she could endlessly compare herself to them and prove to herself she's the better one... she could. not. stop. looking up the victims' families. Doom-scrolling. Sucking in their grief, making it her own. Figuring out how to paint herself as a victim to her coworkers THIS time so she could soak in all the sympathy, empathy, and attention humanly possible.

Taking home confidential medical records isn't something any nurse I personally know has done (I asked, when it came up with Lucy). A few even said that's an immediate firing. Refusing to leave the room while the family is grieving? What sick sh*t is this? There is just no way she's some innocent, naive, skipping little girl who can do no wrong. Looking at the evidence, objectively, it is not possible for me, IMO. I wanted her to be innocent because I didn't want someone to be capable of doing this, but...

We have soulless monsters living among us.

 

[Kemug]

To me Letby taking the stand changed the way the defence were planning to run things completely, she must of insisted possibly, the narc in her rearing it’s ugly head again. I think they must of had “ experts “ lined up to refute the prosecution in some way and she utterly blew it for them, hence why we have only heard from the plumber. It’s utterly staggering in a case of this magnitude. After Letby going in the box as posters have said upthread nobody in their right minds would go in for the defence - it’s career suicide.
I say a few days for the verdict. Usually it’s a show of hands when they sit down and then work out from there.
Dear god what an absolute mess and I do think BM will be furious tbh.
Just my musings obviously.

Actually, I can just see NJ and BM sharing a pint in a lovely old English pub sometime in the near future, and rehashing it all!

 

[katydid23]

Actually, I can just see NJ and BM sharing a pint in a lovely old English pub sometime in the near future, and rehashing it all!

I am pretty sure they will. My Dad was a defense attorney and did a few murder trials. He went head to head with many prosecutors. But he used to meet with them over dinner and drinks quite routinely.[never during a trial of course]

They all knew each socially and they often had to work together and negotiate matters out of court. Part of his legal strategy was to stay on good terms and in communication with his adversaries because sometimes you need to trust each other for the good of your clients.

He would get calls sometimes from judges or prosecutors, asking him to represent a family member with legal issues. So there was mutual respect between them all.

 

[Kemug]

Unless I missed it, we never really heard much about LL's strange notes, eg "I am evil" etc. To me her jottings were an indication of a very disturbed mind, and I would like to find out a bit more about them.

 

[Tortoise]

Snippet of defence opening statement

This table exists because the prosecution created it, and was put together for the purpose of the prosecution."It was to show what were declared to be key events.

"This is a self-serving document. What we have here is because the prosecution have chosen to present it this way."

Where's BM's table that isn't self serving?
Shoddy effort from him in the end imo

A barrister can only present a theory of their case in opening speech and closing arguments. He can't put a table he has created, with a member of his team, on the witness stand. What he was saying was that the prosecution's table -

"does not show the 'individual health of the children concerned, or any problems they had from birth, or the risks, or the course of treatment and/or problems encountered by said treatment'.
The chart does not show 'other collapses or desaturations' for the children when Letby is not present.

12:44pm

The table does not show 'shortcomings in care' which 'could have impacted the health of the baby', or 'how busy the unit was', or 'what Letby was actually doing at the time of the event', My Myers tells the court.

12:44pm

It doesn't show 'whether Lucy Letby was anywhere near to a child at the time of the event' or if there was 'a problem which could be traced before Letby's arrival'."
Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

All of these elements he has examined, rigorously, with the doctors concerned with the care of the babies, the medical experts, and also the defendant herself to try to show she was busy elsewhere. It's a bit much, IMO, to blame him for not making an effort - he has thoroughly prodded and poked every witness, accused them of being less than capable, attacked their practices, tried to show biases and unprofessionalism, painted a picture of an unsanitary, understaffed unit in chaos, and put the prosecution to proof over every claim, quite formidably, IMO.

He is not to blame for whether there aren't medical experts of standing who would give a different opinion, or opinions which wouldn't withstand cross-examination, or for not putting up experts who would undermine his case because they agree with the prosecution. He is a silk and he knows not to lead his case into trouble, which he could so easily do by putting up certain less than credible individuals, or cranks of the internet realm, who have not paid any attention to the evidence.

If he were to present a chart in his closing arguments, it would have to be the prosecution's chart with Letby's name rubbed out because their case is that she didn't cause the events. I doubt we will see one.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Could being too hasty ever be grounds for appeal?

No. There is a legal requirement of two hours and ten minutes I believe, although I think the ten minutes might have been dropped from the law.

There also used to be a prohibition on juries being sent out to deliberate on a Friday afternoon but that has also now been changed.

 

[Kemug]

Anyone else feeling a bit sorry for the plumber? Been working there since the 80s, probably was cursing the place while dealing with a clogged sluicemaster and literal crap in the labour ward, thinking to himself “can this job get any worse?”, and the answer was yes, yes it does get worse, one day you’ll be testifying about this as the only witness for the defence in a baby murder trial. Poor guy.everyone

Or maybe not - he may have enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame! And he'll be getting free drinks from his mates at his pub for quite some time!

 

[BabaVanga]

All of the below is in my opinion only, allegedly, etc etc. This person is innocent until proven guilty.

Man. Wow. That "defense". If you could call it that. I think her lawyer threw in the towel. Over a hundred days hearing about babies being murdered, EVERY single day? Being the person in charge of standing up for an accused baby murderer for 100+ days? Man needs a vacation. Hell, everyone there does, except Lethal Lucy.

I have never looked into her childhood and idk if she was born without a conscience or if something triggered that. I lean toward the first. I'd like to hear of people's experiences with her before her nursing "career".

The documented evidence we've seen of her severe, constant online obsessions with not only her coworkers so she could endlessly compare herself to them and prove to herself she's the better one... she could. not. stop. looking up the victims' families. Doom-scrolling. Sucking in their grief, making it her own. Figuring out how to paint herself as a victim to her coworkers THIS time so she could soak in all the sympathy, empathy, and attention humanly possible.

Taking home confidential medical records isn't something any nurse I personally know has done (I asked, when it came up with Lucy). A few even said that's an immediate firing. Refusing to leave the room while the family is grieving? What sick is this? There is just no way she's some innocent, naive, skipping little girl who can do no wrong. Looking at the evidence, objectively, it is not possible for me, IMO. I wanted her to be innocent because I didn't want someone to be capable of doing this, but...

We have soulless monsters living among us.

<modsnip: Nicknames or derogatory terms for individuals are not allowed>

Good morning to everyone from the hot and sunny Scottish seaside

 

[Marantz4250b]

No. There is a legal requirement of two hours and ten minutes I believe, although I think the ten minutes might have been dropped from the law.

There also used to be a prohibition on juries being sent out to deliberate on a Friday afternoon but that has also now been changed.

I'm sure I read two hours but forget where now. I think someone may have posted a link the the relevant statute way back in the mists of time.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Or maybe not - he may have enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame! And he'll be getting free drinks from his mates at his pub for quite some time!

And as the only defence witness he might to quite well from the inevitable plethora of documentaries, films, etc for years to come.

Was he just a plumber or a general fix-it/maintenance man? I wonder if he ever had cause to repair shredders?

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I thunk much of it falls apart when scrutinised. I kept hearing about this expert in statistics that could tear this prosecution case apart. And recently saw his tweets about it. His most recent said "The number of deaths in LL’s shifts is in no way surprising given how much of the time she was in duty."

That^^^ makes no sense. It only works in a very out of context way---she works x amount of extra hours so x amount of extra deaths are not surprising. WTH?

Any amount of extra deaths are surprising because this was not a hospice care hospital unit. And his quote did noting take into account that all of those 'extra' deaths happened exactly along with LL's shifts, even when she changed from night to day, and even when she was away on vacation and then returned.

The spike in deaths should not exactly mirror her schedule changes. If he was really an expert in statistical analysis I think he would see it differently.

I don’t think an appeal on the stats would stand much chance because the prosecution hasn’t really made its case purely on the statistics.

I think an appeal is more likely on the basis of medical evidence : maybe not immediately, but I wouldn’t be surprised if , in a few years, there is some development in testing or research on which they try to build an appeal.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

No. There is a legal requirement of two hours and ten minutes I believe, although I think the ten minutes might have been dropped from the law.

There also used to be a prohibition on juries being sent out to deliberate on a Friday afternoon but that has also now been changed.

How interesting , I never knew that. What’s with the ten minutes though ? Seems very random, even if it has now been dropped