UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Marantz4250b]

Anyone else getting Victoria Plumbing ads or just me ?!
Not joking btw !

Dayuse hotels here!

 

[Marantz4250b]

He's famous now too. This must have been the weirdest day of his life.

Wonder if he'll do the whole red carpet thing at the premiere?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Wonder if he'll do the whole red carpet thing at the premiere?

There's a movie already? Who's playing LL? Charlize Theron?

 

[esther43]

I'm holding out for a compilation of NJ's best bits.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think he would be okay with his name being published, doc choc wasn’t because he knew what his wife would think. IMO.

Plus high five to the plumber for his five minutes of fame, you rock mr plumber.

eta. If his wife learns the dates of the London outings and his dates in court she might put two and two together.

I think that the chances of Doc Chocs wife not knowing about this at this point are close to zero!

 

[katydid23]

Deliberations may take a while I feel, the fact a life sentence tariff is a realistic possibility will give jurors pause for thought. People don’t like to make hasty decisions when the consequences involve a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

The cognitive dissonance piece still comes into play here too she’s a woman in loco parentis seemingly a caregiver. Casey Anthony is a prime case where even though the mother lied and provably lied a guilty verdict was never reached.

Finally I still think motive will be a barrier for some jurors, the why is still very elusive. If she’d been reported as screaming at the babies before they collapses I think jurors would feel more assured about visible negative behaviours. There is such opacity around her childhood and history it’s a point of contention for some id wager.

Moo moo moo

I think NJ will paint a clearer picture of her motive during his closing statements.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think that the chances of Doc Chocs wife not knowing about this at this point are close to zero!

You don’t think they danced the dance then? Not very sure on that myself, if the prosecution had evidence of that would pit be public considering the docs marriage? Yeh the mrs would know if he had nothing to hide.

 

[Cardgame]

Like others here am just catching up and very shocked at this turn of events.

Is it possible Myers has some Ace up his sleeve for his closing arguments?

If so what could that be?

 

[katydid23]

Like others here am just catching up and very shocked at this turn of events.

Is it possible Myers has some Ace up his sleeve for his closing arguments?

If so what could that be?

I think he has zero aces up his sleeve. He cannot bring up anything brand new in closing statements. That is a time for a summary of his case.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Yep - Zero aces now, It’s all done bar the shouting as my mum would say.
What an utterly bizarre case all in all, I don’t recall anything quite like it.

 

[Sundial]

Like others here am just catching up and very shocked at this turn of events.

Is it possible Myers has some Ace up his sleeve for his closing arguments?

If so what could that be?

I’m not sure what ace he could possibly pull now; he had the opportunity and IMO all he delivered was the witness statement given by the plumber.
Whilst there was some truth to what LL said about sewage, it was still only that odd weird “half truth” she seems to like to give. In some ways whilst it did suggest there was a sewage problem, it didn’t happen quite has been quite suggested and steps were taken to address this even with portable hand basins. Again as with the babies claimed by NJ who suggested she used their condition or fragility to disguise her attacks on them; was she also using the same thing here with the sewage points to avoid any detection etc. It wouldn’t be the first time she had casually explained things away.

IMO I don’t feel the plumber as their only witness statement for the defence is anywhere remotely close enough to claw back some strong points. For me it fell so flat I had to scrape my chin off the floor that there was nothing else.

I truly was expecting something more, anything in addition to the plumber, much stronger and I wonder if the jury went in anticipating way more, but to be met with what seemed like a HUGE anti-climax. I can just imagine the exchanged glances of “was that it?!!” All my own thoughts of course.

Personally I feel not even closing arguments could save this sinking ship.
Would anything he says on closing arguments be able to rescue the train wreck that was and is her persistent lies and contradictions? Can anything he says in closing statements reduce the powerful evidence given by medical experts, parents, and the prosecutions delivery?

I’m really not so sure IMO
IF GUILTY. JMO

 

[Sundial]

Like others here am just catching up and very shocked at this turn of events.

Is it possible Myers has some Ace up his sleeve for his closing arguments?

If so what could that be?

The only thing IMO I can think of really;

Will he claim she truly is just the most “unluckiest” person in the world, destined for a life projection of “bad luck”

JMO MOO IF guilty

 

[bananahanalulu]

I'm kinda stunned after today's (lack of) evidence; I know a lot of you thought there wouldn't be anything, but I figured there had to be something, or else what case can they make? The plumber in itself made sense; having seen the reactions on here to LL mentioning the drainage problems, proving she was not just making it up was a good move. But... that was it?!

They couldn't even find any expert prepared to say "yes, air embolism is a good possibility, but so is XYZ condition", or any senior nurse prepared to say "yes, a careless nurse could accidentally put air into the system if they were too busy texting to follow procedures correctly". Or even any statician to warn of the dangers of relying on a list of who worked on the shifts in question (I recall this coming up before the trial started). They don't even have to prove any alternative theories, just introduce doubt, so saying there's a reasonable chance that something else could be the cause of various incidents would lessen the cumulative effect of everything, but they can't even produce that. I really expected more.

I have a feeling after the defence case, the jury will need less time than I'd originally thought before it - I doubt it'll be as short as 1-2 days if they take their job seriously, as each charge does need to be looked at individually, and not all are totally clear cut (from what's been reported in the media - it's entirely likely that evidence in court was better!), but I doubt it'll be a multi-week deliberation now. I bet the jury can't wait, I do feel they should get some kind of reward for putting up with it for so long!

Hello, I am new to this thread and just want to add my 2 cents here, and my apologies for such a long post, I feel so personal with this trial:

I am following this case and I am invested in it because I am a mom to a 30- weeker. I read through from thread 25 and a lot of people were saying "innocent until proven guilty" and LL's guilt needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt AKA satisfied that you are sure that LL is guilty.

Maybe it is a bit late but I want to share my experience...

I had my baby when she was 30 weeks, terrible experience, not going into much details, but cut long story short, she was taken to NNU immediately into incubator and stayed there for 7 weeks. I spent every day with her from 9am- to 7pm sometimes 10pm (I am a first time mom), except for times I had to eat or express, I would sit next to her incubator later cot. I became friends with a few other moms. The youngest premmie was a 24 weeker whom had been there for 6 months.

My baby had jaundice, few (non life threatening) common issues in premmie but other than that, was/ is fine. The youngest premmie had a lot more complicated health issues.

However, never once I heard the alarm is being ignored under 85% let alone 30% to see if baby can manage to breath themselves.

High dependency on cpap will not be an issue to harm baby because a lot of babies were sent home with cpap machine and parents (who may not be HCP) are trained to assist their babies (you sometimes see babies are out with tube attach to nostrils)- Meaning babies just need supporting in breathing sometimes so their lungs don't have to work too hard before they fully matured.

Premmie do not "suddenly collapsed" and "take a turn for worse out of nowhere"- an infection will take days to attack baby's immune system, yes premmie is a lot more fragile but they also have a very strong will to fight to be alive and with the surrounding by medicine, HCP, consultants, support machine, a virus would not be able to kill them that easily. They may have health issues in their lives later but again we are talking about sudden deaths here.

Two cases of 33 and 34 weekers both are healthy and sudden deaths. I am sorry no way, with my limited knowledge of my time in NNU, those babies are in and out in days or weeks . When my baby were moved to the cot room, the ones are staying longer were either younger in gestation or similiar (28,29,39,30). My baby and the 24 weeker got discharged at the same time from hospital- And she was under consultant care until she was 2 to make sure she is as healthy as other full term babies.

<modsnip - discussion of guilt or innocence>

The CPS's neonatologist expert witness Dr Sandie Bohin is the absolute top tier IMO, she has excellent knowledge of high risk neonates to conclude these premmie do not suddenly collapsed, she went to Vietnam for a year "to provide training to doctors and nurses to significantly reduce neonatal mortality". If someone wants to challenge her opinion, I think they should be perhaps Apollo himself- jk.

Poor poor parents, it is very painful, we know one piece of the puzzle but they know at least a hundred of it this investigation...

It was so so hard watching your baby in the incubator, my baby was only 3lbs, tiny little thing, half the size of your arm (when she was discharged), you would be afraid to touch them in case you hurt them, you wanted to hold them but you do not want to give them any virus or anything risky, you listened to your HCP 100% no doubt, literally here is my heart and soul, I trust you. You do what they told you as a robot because you do not have the expertise to question it, premature babies are not just a normal sickness in a baby to challenge anything you disagree with right. You just want your baby to get well and ready to go home. They are very strong willed babies but very defenceless, they rely on the adults to help them.

<modsnip - discussion of guilt or innocence>

JMO

 

[Becci]

Snippet of defence opening statement

This table exists because the prosecution created it, and was put together for the purpose of the prosecution."It was to show what were declared to be key events.

"This is a self-serving document. What we have here is because the prosecution have chosen to present it this way."

Where's BM's table that isn't self serving?
Shoddy effort from him in the end imo

 

[katydid23]

Yes, it will be interesting to see on what grounds if she is found guilty.

There have been so many apparent experts online putting forward alternative explanations. Maybe they simply fall apart when scrutinised; or maybe they are being saved for an appeal.

I thunk much of it falls apart when scrutinised. I kept hearing about this expert in statistics that could tear this prosecution case apart. And recently saw his tweets about it. His most recent said "The number of deaths in LL’s shifts is in no way surprising given how much of the time she was in duty."

That^^^ makes no sense. It only works in a very out of context way---she works x amount of extra hours so x amount of extra deaths are not surprising. WTH?

Any amount of extra deaths are surprising because this was not a hospice care hospital unit. And his quote did noting take into account that all of those 'extra' deaths happened exactly along with LL's shifts, even when she changed from night to day, and even when she was away on vacation and then returned.

The spike in deaths should not exactly mirror her schedule changes. If he was really an expert in statistical analysis I think he would see it differently.

 

[katydid23]

Snippet of defence opening statement

This table exists because the prosecution created it, and was put together for the purpose of the prosecution."It was to show what were declared to be key events.

"This is a self-serving document. What we have here is because the prosecution have chosen to present it this way."

Where's BM's table that isn't self serving?
Shoddy effort from him in the end imo

Yes, we kept hearing how that table was misleading and unfair to LL. I did think he was going to explain more fully, how it was so invalid.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Like others here am just catching up and very shocked at this turn of events.

Is it possible Myers has some Ace up his sleeve for his closing arguments?

If so what could that be?

He can't have anything else. The time for presenting evidence has passed.

 

[Jayney404]

Snippet of defence opening statement

This table exists because the prosecution created it, and was put together for the purpose of the prosecution."It was to show what were declared to be key events.

"This is a self-serving document. What we have here is because the prosecution have chosen to present it this way."

Where's BM's table that isn't self serving?
Shoddy effort from him in the end imo

Yes I was rather expecting a counter document showing numerous collapses in ll’s absence. It never transpired….

I’m surprised he made this claim but never substantiated it as it stuck in my mind too. Would have caused interest if he’d managed to pull something out of the bag, but alas alack the bag instead contained plumbers tools!

I hope he doesn’t refer to this this again in closing!

JMO moo moo

 

[Music2022]

We’d be here for weeks trying to list them all there were so many contradictions, some about the most petty things IMO..
The shredder she said in her police interviews she’d forgot she had one then on the stand she used it to shred bank statements. She then said in her police interview she’d only bought it recently, NJ pointed out she bought the shredder in April 2016, I imagine her police interview would have been in 2018 around the time of her first arrest so not exactly recent.. she also said again in her police interview it may have been her parents shredder.

Another moment that sticks out is her not knowing what an air embolism was in her police interview, on the stand NJ revealed she filed a Datix a couple of days after she had been asked not to come into work after the collapse of baby Q, in the Datix she claimed a port on one of the victims had been left open and that it was a risk of ‘accidental air embolism’ she also text a colleague about it being a risk of air embolism too. She had also recently done her intensive care training just prior to the death of baby A and this training would have involved the risks of AE.

She claimed on direct examination that she had PTSD caused in part by being arrested and ‘taken from her home in her pyjamas’, NJ told her she was wearing a blue lee cooper tracksuit when taken from her home and offered to show the video, she then said it was her first arrest when she was taken in her pyjamas, NJ offered to show the video and LL refused to answer.

LL claimed that she hadn’t altered medical notes, NJ showed examples where she had changed the times of certain events on the victims notes, she also wrote a note about a doctor visiting to check a baby over as they’d showed signs of decline, NJ told her that the doctor said they had made no such visit.

LL answered ‘I don’t recall’ multiple times whenever NJ pointed out a discrepancy and evidence that she had lied about something, this happened quite a few times sometimes over small trivial issues. She accused almost all of her colleagues of either lying or making mistakes, then would eventually say something like ‘that might be how they remember it but I don’t recall that’. Such as Dr J who came into the room and found LL standing over baby K who was collapsing with their tube dislodged, doing nothing.

She accused a gang of 4 colleagues of a conspiracy against her, but provided no evidence of conspiracy.

She denied texting in the nurseries and NJ put it to her multiple times she was texting while she was in clinical areas, a spree of texts were sent during the time she had recorded that she’d been feeding a baby that would have taken as she said ‘15-20 minutes’.

BM had claimed in his opening statement that sub optimal care, staffing issues and incompetence were factors in the babies collapses and deaths, NJ asked LL before he began questioning her about each baby if ‘staffing levels, medical mistakes or sub optimal care were a factor in the collapse or death’ of each baby. LL would in some instances go on to suggest that the unit was over staffed, colleagues didn’t know what they were doing at times and insinuate that another colleague had made mistakes, after having ruled these things out for that case already.

LL told the jury that she had PTSD and had been isolated from family and friends and lived a life of despair between the time of her redeployment and arrest. NJ presented photos of LL on days and nights out with friends and a certain doctor colleague who she claims she wasn’t romantically involved with but went on an away day to London and other outings with, doctor colleague was married.

LL claimed to have forgotten she had any taken any handover sheets home, she denies keeping them on purpose even though there were 257 stored in her home under her bed, in bags she was taking to and from work every day, in a box marked ‘keep’ and one ‘pristine’ handover note from 2010 in a keepsake box with roses on the lid.

LL claimed not to remember some of the babies, can’t remember certain collapses, but can remember she wasn’t in the room when they collapsed. She also searched for many of the parents on Facebook for up to around 2 years after the collapse/death of their child. She claims she searched for the parents of twins baby E & F after the death of baby E ‘to see how F was doing’ NJ pointed out that baby F was still on the unit at this time.

She claimed not to have been present at one baby’s collapse because she was caring for another child, NJ pointed out that this child has not even been born yet at the time she says she was looking after them.

There were lots more IMO. I’m not sure what days some of these things were said on, I’m sure they’re all somewhere on the Chester standard updates though. Some things were reported by Sky or Dan on twitter too, There were times where things were included by some reporters that weren’t mentioned by others MOO

All MOO
IMO
JMO

Thanks so much for listing all this. I appreciate it.
Definitely made me see what everyone was talking about. The “I don’t know what embolism is” in the police interview but filling in a datix form about it earlier is just bizarre. Why would you say you don’t know what it is.

 

[katydid23]

If I was a juror I’d hope all agreed verdict quickly , then put our respective feet up and enjoy a proper chat and nibbles before announcing verdict.

If G or NG a really quick verdict would make it look like they hadn’t deliberated enough on such a complex case . IMO

And it seems to me, in a very long emotional case like this, they will want to talk to each other about it. They've probably been dying to talk about if for months. So even if the basically agree on a vote, they will still likely spend a day or two just expressing themselves and commiserating. JMO