UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

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  • #281
[Snipped and bolded by me]


This is so interesting to remember IMO.

Because it's such a big problem for the idea of the consultant 'conspiracy'. IMO.

Even people who were on LL's 'side' had noticed that she was a common element. Their assumption was that it was a competency issue and she needed extra support.

In her own defence in court, LL maintains that she is an excellent nurse. Her lawyers are not suggesting she was inadvertently responsible for the deaths through incompetence.

Which means this pattern aspect of the case is horribly hard to explain away IMO.

IMO if guilty, she was so convinced that she that she had gotten away with it for so long without detection because of how clever she had been.

But in fact, it was because they were giving her the benefit of the doubt for as long as was humanly possibly.

This is the opposite of a conspiracy. No one was out to get her. They tried to help her.
"This is the opposite of a conspiracy. No one was out to get her. They tried to help her."

wow, Exactly.

Her self confidence, smooth way of speaking and reassuring others of her concern and competence worked wonders for her for a very long time.

Babies dropping all around her for a year and still she had so many high level staff in support of her and fighting for her, in spite of the obvious spike in unexplained collapses.

She always had a ready answer, a believable half-truth, to offer up with a smile. Nice Lucy. Always ready to lend a helping hand, take on an extra shift, for the good of the team. Quick to communicate with others, keeping up with what is going on. A real team player.
 
  • #282
Maybe the rule wasn't relaxed so much as it never properly existed in the first place and so they held back from reiterating it on legal advice when things got more serious?

I'm not sure there's any legislation that covers instructing staff members to not speak to people in their free time outside of work, apart from legislation that probably says you can't. JMO

Do you mean she fabricated it to add to the sense that she was being victimised?

Def seems possible.

The only mention of anything like this I've seen is in her messages to her colleague on 8 August 2016 about what she said Tony (who I think was CEO at the time) told her. He said it was up to her but he would advise not speaking with anyone in case any of them are involved with the review process(She met with a review panel on 1 September, so presumably that was the end of the review process?) If so, if she did take his advice, we're possibly looking at a period of 3-4 weeks where she might have avoided talking to people who may have been involved in the review process.

On July 19, Letby began work in the patient experience team.

On August 8, Letby messages the nursing colleague: "Tony phoned. He's going to speak to Karen and insist on the review being no later than 1st week of Sept but said he definitely wouldn't advise pushing to get back to unit until it's taken place. Asked about social things and he said it's up to me but would advise not speaking with anyone in case any of them are involved with the review process. Thinks I should keep head down.and ride it out and can take further once over.

"Feel a bit like Im being shoved in a corner and.forgotten about by.the trust. It's my life and career.

"He's not been.given any information about the evidence he asked for.which is good. He's not sure what the external people.are going to look at in relation to me but we are in the process now.so have to ride it out"

The colleague responds: "Ok well just have to take his advice then suppose"

Letby: "Still can't believe this has happened. It's making me feel like I should hide away by saying not speak to anyone and going on for months etc - I haven't done anything wrong."

The colleague responds: "Me neither! I know it's all so ridiculous."

Letby: "I can't see where it will all end"

The colleague responds: "I'm sure this time after xmas it'll all b a distant memory."

After Letby received an email announcing she had been seconded to the Risk & Patient Safety office for three months, she messaged the nursing colleague again, saying: "Bloody hell fuming. Im in email and makes it sound like my choice."


The timeline records Letby met with a review panel on September 1. On September 7, she registered a grievance procedure.


 
  • #283
Yes what are the chances, that on 30th June, after concerns being raised about her actions with Baby Q and being told not to come in on her night shift on 27th and her subsequent meltdown...she, of all people, then discovers a baby with a missing port bung, that she said, could, of all things, cause an "accidental" air embolism... which then turns out to be exactly what she's accused of causing deliberately in other babies?

Even more interesting though to me, is why hasn't she used this as her defence in the air embolism cases? Would I be right in assuming that an uncovered port alone would not be enough to cause an air embolism, without somebody injecting air into that port?



All JMO

It’s been a few years since I worked in a NICU and my first concern would have been infection— no stopper in place would mean an open system allowing bacteria to enter. I’m not sure how air could enter the system passively like that? Of course it’s always possible but I don’t remember ever seeing that in 20 years of practice.
If air got into a line it was usually at the time of tubing/ fluid changes or when drawing labs out of art lines. Then it was easy to correct by withdrawing the air. That’s my experience at least, I’m sure these systems have been upgraded in the past few years?

Maybe Marynnu can weigh in?
 
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  • #284
The thing with letby is she takes absolutely no notice of anything, I can’t for a second imagine her toeing the line in who she can and cannot speak and socialise with tbh.

And it couldn't possibly be enforced one way or another IMO. In fact it could be viewed as a form of harassment and violation of human rights. JMO.
 
  • #285
For reference as it’s been at least a 100 years this is the defence opening.
Defence opening statement

Mr Myers: "It is difficult to think of allegations that may be harder to stand back and look fairly and look at the actual evidence.

"The sympathy of everyone will rightly be with families of the children...involved in this case. We all share the same feelings and experiences."
"It is natural to sympathise - we all do it. We recognise the sadness, distress and anger that come with allegations like these.

"We acknolwedge the great loss suffered by all families.

"Nothing I can say in this trial is intended to diminish that in any way.

"It is obvious...where we have such terrible allegations, it would be terribly easy for emotion to overcome reason, and convict without hearing a word of evidence."
"There is a real danger people will simply accept the prosecution 'theory' of guilt.
"It is a theory built 'firmly' on coincidence."
"What we are left with is coincidence.

"In the events that happened. Sometimes what happened was the result of deterioration in a baby.

"Sometimes, no-one can say what caused a deterioration.

"Sometimes, things have gone wrong, or the necessary standards of care have not been met, irrespective of anything to do with Lucy Letby. For that, she should not get the blame."The assumption is "The worse it sounds, the more guilty she must be."Mr Myers outlines the 'key issues' for the defence, in what he says will assist the jury and will place everything into context.

He said his speech, at this stage, will take about a couple of hours, and will break down the defence into three general areas: Letby and the general area of her defence, coincidence, and the medical evidence.
He tells the court the medical evidence is a key area, and there are 'key issues' for each count.Letby was a "dedicated nurse" "who did her best" to care for infants and did not intentionally cause "any harm" to any baby, My Myers said.

"She loved her job...and cared for the babies' families.""You won't get your answers [to what Letby is like] through seeing her in thed dock.

"This is what she is like six years after the allegations started. That, as you can imagine, is gruelling for anyone.

"You may want to keep that in mind as we go through the evidence in this case.""A young woman who trained hard to be a nurse...and looked after many vulnerable babies for years.

"A young woman who loved what she did, and found she was being blamed for the deaths of the babies she cared for.

"We are dealing with a real person dealing with...a litany of allegations...not one of which has been proved."Mr Myers refers back to the note shown to the court just before the break.

He said it is a note written in anguish and despair.

She was "going through a grievance procedure" with the NHS at the time, the court hears, and knew what was being said about her before her arrest.

The allegations were "destructive", the court hears.

The note is headed 'not good enough'. The defence notes it does not say 'guilty'.

The note adds: "I will never have children or marry".

Another part of the note says "I haven't done anything wrong".

Mr Myers: "We say people can pour feelings on to paper.

"This [paper] represents the anguished state of mind Letby felt when accused of killing children she had cared for.

"We say this paper represents 'anguish' and not 'guilt'.

There was further paperwork the police took from Letby's address at the time of her arrest.

The defence say the paperwork was "nothing more extraordinary" that Letby being someone who scribbles a lot of work down, and keeps hold of it.

The defence say the prosecution case is "driven by the assumption of someone doing deliberate harm combined by the coincidence of Letby's presence."That is, Mr Myers said, combined with Letby "not doing" what is alleged against her.

"You will find, from what we have heard, no evidence of her actually doing harm to a child.

"These allegations are of attacks. You will have heard words of poisoning, sabotage - words likely to have had an emotional impact on you.

"You will have to refer to whether Letby is engaged in any of the attacks alleged.

"Using syringes to inject air? No. Tampering with bags of fluid - or poisoning them? No. Physically assaulting children? Smothering them?

"We are dealing with 24 events and we say there is nothing [to suggest that].""The time of Letby's presence has itself become an explanation for the deterioration."The list on nursing staff on duty for all the fatal and non-fatal collapses, with Letby on duty for all events, is shown again to the court.

"This table exists because the prosecution created it, and was put together for the purpose of the prosecution."It was to show what were declared to be key events.

"This is a self-serving document. What we have here is because the prosecution have chosen to present it this way."

The defence says it does not show the 'individual health of the children concerned, or any problems they had from birth, or the risks, or the course of treatment and/or problems encountered by said treatment'.

The chart does not show 'other collapses or desaturations' for the children when Letby is not present.The table does not show 'shortcomnigs in care' which 'could have impacted the health of the baby', or 'how busy the unit was', or 'what Letby was actually doing at the time of the event', My Myers tells the court.It doesn't show 'whether Lucy Letby was anywhere near to a child at the time of the event' or if there was 'a problem which could be traced before Letby's arrival'.Regarding the explanations for what happened, My Myers said: "This is something which is quite a difficult question, even for experts to look at.""What the case will come down to is the medical evidence, on what can be safely proved and what it can't."Regarding the medical evidence, Mr Myers said: "The cause of the deteriorations, or deaths, is not clear and have a number of possibilities.

"Generally, we are dealing with babies who are fragile, and their condition can change and deteriorate very rapidly."

Mr Myers adds the premature and vulnerable babies can come with developmental conditions that require extra treatment, and are prone to infections.

"It is crucial to consider the starting point in these cases.

"There is a question to whether this hospital should have been caring for this number of children."Mr Myers: "We suggest whether an event that clearly fits an ongoing and difficult condition has been covnerted into an event of deep suspicion that harm is being done."For a nurse standing in the neonatal unit next to an infant is "unremarkable", without a "suspicion of guilt", Mr Myers tells the court.

"When we come to the experts, you will need to consider their evidence and how strong it is."The defence say there are five 'important' considerations for the evidence:

The birth condition of the infant.

If there were any problems in the care leading up to the event - events 'can come up from nowhere'

Whether the prosecution expert evidence concludes there was deliberate harm done

Whether Lucy Letby was present at the relevant time, and what she was doing

Whether there were failings in care by other people or the neonatal unit as a wholeThe birth condition of the infant

Mr Myers tells the court: "We are dealing with some of the most medically fragile babies under the most intense medical care.

"All of them, bar one, are premature to varying degrees. Some had considerable problems.

"These babies are already at risk of deterioration and this can happen unexpectedly and it can be rapid."The matters leading up up to the event

Mr Myers refers to the medical situation and condition of the children involved.

Sometimes that includes 'the ability of doctors and nurses to spot' signs of problems in the build-up to the event.Sometimes that would be a problem if the unit was "understaffed and overstretched," Mr Myers saidThe defence say in relation to the evidence, "we have to be careful of the assumption or theory of guilt," and the "dangers of opinion" in relation to the conclusions of "deliberate harm".

"We say that if an expert sets out within expectation a suspicion of harm being done, that may make it more likely they will reach conclusions which are harm based...rather than innocent explanations.

"When there is no explanation, there is a danger of the expert filling the absence of an explanation with one...by the prosecution.""If someone looks for something, and has something in mind, they will look for that."

"Confirmation bias," added Mr Myers"There is plenty of disagreement" between the prosecution expert evidence and the defence.Medical evidence

Mr Myers tells the court that sometimes deteriorations are unexplained, and if Lucy Letby cannot provide an explanation, that does not make her responsible.

For every count, Letby is "adamant" she has "done nothing wrong" to cause any deliberate harm to any of the babies in the case, Mr Myers adds.

Regarding the point of air embolus cases The defence "accept it is a theoretical possibility", but that "does not establish very much".

"You will hear in this case, that the air present after death does not indicate an air embolus."

Mr Myers said air present in the abdomen "can happen post-mortem".

the opening statement then goes on to discuss each baby in more detail - see the baby A-Q sections below

Mr Myers added there are two further areas to consider.

"It is important not to guess, or proceed on a presumption of guilt."

"Even when we have timings...some will be more precise than others."

There were many occasions when "Lucy Letby was simply not there" when harm was being alleged.

"Lucy Letby was a young nurse with no family commitment, who had built her life around the neonatal unit.

"She was often called in to help babies with severe health issues...she was more likely to be there to cover for clinically difficult babies."

The defence say Letby's lack of recollecting details in police interviews should be put into context, like other witnesses, who may not be able to recall anything beyond the notes they made at the time.

"Goodness knows how many babies she will have cared for over the years," Mr Myers said.

Other staff
Mr Myers said this is important - it would be "unbalanced and unfair" if the focus was on Lucy Letby without focusing on problems with other staff, or how the unit was run.

"We do not suggest for one moment the doctors and nurses did anything other than the best they could.

"What they do is admirable and crucial."
"We say there were problems with the way the unit performed which had nothing to do with Lucy Letby."

Examples of sub-optimal care for babies previously mentioned and conceded by the prosecution are relayed to the jury.

"There are many other examples of sub-optimal care of babies in this unit," Mr Myers.

The defence say the prosecution have referred how babies improved rapidly when moved to a tertiary unit - "when moved away from Lucy Letby"

The defence says the improvement could be because they had been "moved away from the Countess of Chester Hospital".

It is evidence that the unit "did not always deliver the level of care that it should have provided" and to blame Letby "is unfair and inaccurate".

Mr Myers explains the neonatal unit is a level 2 unit, with level 3 offering the highest specialist care for new-borns, such as in Arrowe Park.

Either 'through lack of technical level of skill among the staff, or because it was too busy and could not deliver with the level of staff it had available.'

The Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit was subsequently 'resdesignated' as a level 1 unit after Letby was redeployed in July 2016, Mr Myers said.

"You can imagine in a situation like that, there is bound to be concern."

The defence also refer to Dr Ravi Jayaram, and his 'concern' about Letby's behaviour as detailed by the prosecution in the opening.

"You may wonder what on earth that is all about.

"If Dr Jayaram had these suspicions, when did that start?

"You may think that if consultants had suspicions, then why did Letby continue?

"You may wonder if there was any basis for suspicion at all.

"You may think that suspicions by one or more consultants like that, if Letby is to blame, then that is fertile self-serving territory for an assumption of guilt to take hold."

Mr Myers said Letby became a "target" for blame.
"It would be very unfair to judge Lucy Letby by standards or expectations different to other staff in the unit," Mr Myers said.

The defence say if it can be interpreted the unit is understaffed, treatment is "hurried," "mistakes made" and records "not kept". Mistakes may "not be immediate".

Mr Myers: If the unit has "failed" in its care which has led to this "uncharateristic spike in deaths", you can imagine "pressures" which call for an explanation, 'distancing the blame from those running the hospital' through "confirmation bias".

"The blame is far too great for just one person," Mr Myers added.

"In that dock is a woman who says this is not her fault."

They have to work with this.
 
  • #286
Maybe Myers, working closely with LL, finds her compelling and believable.

I've been assuming, which is that she's the one who wanted to take the stand.

But maybe it was all his idea? Maybe he thought she would win the jury over?

It does seem baffling what the defence actually is.

Perhaps they were hoping for the jury to come away thinking "well whatever happened, it can't have been HER"

MOO.

It doesn't matter what he believes or his personal opinions are, he will keep those to himself.

His profession is to ensure that LL has a properly structured defence to the letter of the law and that where applicable, her arguments and counter-statements are brought forth for consideration. This is why barristers are able to take difficult cases, so they are ensuring there's no miscarriage of justice.

He has no control over what she claims on the stand and if she says something outside of 'agreed facts / truths' he'd have to keep re-evaluating and discussing with her. It would be a terrible thing if she lost her defence team at this juncture so he's adapting to how things are unfolding IMO and if it seems an unclear defence it's probably because it is - he only has to introduce reasonable doubts IMO.
 
  • #287
Yes what are the chances, that on 30th June, after concerns being raised about her actions with Baby Q and being told not to come in on her night shift on 27th and her subsequent meltdown...she, of all people, then discovers a baby with a missing port bung, that she said, could, of all things, cause an "accidental" air embolism... which then turns out to be exactly what she's accused of causing deliberately in other babies?

Even more interesting though to me, is why hasn't she used this as her defence in the air embolism cases? Would I be right in assuming that an uncovered port alone would not be enough to cause an air embolism, without somebody injecting air into that port?



All JMO

If she was an officious sort of stickler for health and safety with an attention to detail who frequently flagged up errors and dangers, that would be one thing and could also be totally understandable. Most of all, it would be recorded and proven. To suddenly commence making allegations seems very suspicious doesn't it?
 
  • #288
Do you mean she fabricated it to add to the sense that she was being victimised?

Def seems possible.

She was certainly verbally suggested to lie low and disengage whilst the review took place but that's hardly a formal instruction not to interact with or contact people. More victim stance from LL ?
 
  • #289
If she was an officious sort of stickler for health and safety with an attention to detail who frequently flagged up errors and dangers, that would be one thing and could also be totally understandable. Most of all, it would be recorded and proven. To suddenly commence making allegations seems very suspicious doesn't it?
She did apparently report errors, but the timing and nature of this one is very "coincidental" IMO
 
  • #290
If she was an officious sort of stickler for health and safety with an attention to detail who frequently flagged up errors and dangers, that would be one thing and could also be totally understandable. Most of all, it would be recorded and proven. To suddenly commence making allegations seems very suspicious doesn't it?
Yes sewage backing up in the sluice, colleagues not washing their hands on re-entry to the ward and colleagues presenting with contagious conditions (conjunctivitis) around neonates didn’t warrant datix reporting. But once suspicion arises suddenly it’s incredibly important to report this open port event….

Yet another conincidence in a series of coincidences I guess….

IMO If guilty etc
 
  • #291
She was certainly verbally suggested to lie low and disengage whilst the review took place but that's hardly a formal instruction not to interact with or contact people. More victim stance from LL ?
And even according to her own text message she was told the decision was up to her.
 
  • #292
I wonder whether dr choc gave her the info for baby k?
Also i hope his wife/ex ewife unmasks him after this. (I would) haha
If there is a court order in place protecting his identity, she can't.
 
  • #293
If guilty…
The irony that she messages a colleague saying she’s been advised not to speak to any colleagues!

There appears to be a strong need to persuade this colleague that there is no evidence and that ll has done nothing wrong. I wonder who these texts were to…

JMO if guilty etc
 
  • #294
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  • #295
From Defense Opening Statement [ posted above @Parker Knoll]

[here is what was said about the post-it notes]

"You may want to keep that in mind as we go through the evidence in this case.""A young woman who trained hard to be a nurse...and looked after many vulnerable babies for years.

"A young woman who loved what she did, and found she was being blamed for the deaths of the babies she cared for.

"We are dealing with a real person dealing with...a litany of allegations...not one of which has been proved."Mr Myers refers back to the note shown to the court just before the break.

He said it is a note written in anguish and despair.

She was "going through a grievance procedure" with the NHS at the time, the court hears, and knew what was being said about her before her arrest.

The allegations were "destructive", the court hears.

The note is headed 'not good enough'. The defence notes it does not say 'guilty'.

The note adds: "I will never have children or marry".

Another part of the note says "I haven't done anything wrong".

Mr Myers: "We say people can pour feelings on to paper.

"This [paper] represents the anguished state of mind Letby felt when accused of killing children she had cared for.

"We say this paper represents 'anguish' and not 'guilt'.
 
  • #296
<modsnip - quoted post was removed; sub judice - material not presented at trial>


A meeting of a consultants was held on June 29, 2016, the court heard.

Dr Jayaram said: “After a number of further unusual, unexplained and inexplicable events on the neo-natal unit the whole consultant body sat down and said ‘we really need to work out what is going on here’.

He said that “one thing that came up in our discussion” was air embolism – when gas bubbles enter a vein or artery and can block blood supply.

Dr Jayaram said it prompted him that evening to conduct a literature search in which he found a research paper which described the effects of air embolism.

He said: “I remember sitting on my sofa at home with the iPad and reading that description, and the physical chill that went down my spine because it fitted with what we were seeing.”


Dr Jayaram emailed colleagues a link to the research paper the next day.

 
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  • #297
From Defense Opening Statement [ posted above @Parker Knoll]

[here is what was said about the post-it notes]

"You may want to keep that in mind as we go through the evidence in this case.""A young woman who trained hard to be a nurse...and looked after many vulnerable babies for years.

"A young woman who loved what she did, and found she was being blamed for the deaths of the babies she cared for.

"We are dealing with a real person dealing with...a litany of allegations...not one of which has been proved."Mr Myers refers back to the note shown to the court just before the break.

He said it is a note written in anguish and despair.
I think NJ did some damage to the 'anguish and intense despair' explanation for the notes.
She was "going through a grievance procedure" with the NHS at the time, the court hears, and knew what was being said about her before her arrest.
I am not sure they have convinced others that her knowing 'what was being said about her' is the reason she wrote all of the most dramatic, confession type of notes.

I don't think we heard much about the grievance process either, other than she filed one, and it kept her on the hospital payroll for years.
The allegations were "destructive", the court hears.
I am thinking that by now, the prosecution has made a good case for the reason the allegations were made and the reason the investigation had to be done. I don't think it seems unfair to the public, at this point.
The note is headed 'not good enough'. The defence notes it does not say 'guilty'.
And yet, throughout the trial so far, the defendant has been shown to be a very competent nurse, and when asked, has not admitted to making any serious errors that could have harmed a child.
The note adds: "I will never have children or marry".

Another part of the note says "I haven't done anything wrong".

Mr Myers: "We say people can pour feelings on to paper.

"This [paper] represents the anguished state of mind Letby felt when accused of killing children she had cared for.

"We say this paper represents 'anguish' and not 'guilt'.
I don't think they have been too successful so far with that portion of their case. ---where they prove that these notes were an indication of anguish as opposed to guilt.
 
  • #298
It’s been a few years since I worked in a NICU and my first concern would have been infection— no stopper in place would mean an open system allowing bacteria to enter. I’m not sure how air could enter the system passively like that? Of course it’s always possible but I don’t remember ever seeing that in 20 years of practice.
If air got into a line it was usually at the time of tubing/ fluid changes or when drawing labs out of art lines. Then it was easy to correct by withdrawing the air. That’s my experience at least, I’m sure these systems have been upgraded in the past few years?

Maybe Marynnu can weigh in?

I retired in March 2016, so by chance the same time all this was going on. I agree the idea of air entering via an open port is somewhat strange. As you know, avoiding air is a really big deal, and I don't recollect this ever being mentioned as a possibility.
We used 3-way taps for arterial line sampling, and as you say we withdrew any air before the procedure.
 
  • #299
Defence opening statement
[snipped some]
There was further paperwork the police took from Letby's address at the time of her arrest.

The defence say the paperwork was "nothing more extraordinary" that Letby being someone who scribbles a lot of work down, and keeps hold of it.
I think Meyers will have to say more than just the above about the handover sheets. They cannot try to pass it off as no big deal, just a lot of scribbles that mean nothing. I think NJ destroyed that argument.

I am curious to see if he tries to rehabilitate that issue somehow. He can't ask her about it anymore so?
The defence say the prosecution case is "driven by the assumption of someone doing deliberate harm combined by the coincidence of Letby's presence."That is, Mr Myers said, combined with Letby "not doing" what is alleged against her.

I am not sure they can keep using this statement ---the prosecution case is "driven by the assumption of someone doing deliberate harm combined by the coincidence of Letby's presence."

That sounded very believable during opening statements but it kind of rings hollow now because the state put forth more information, making it more now than just coincidence, IMO.
"You will find, from what we have heard, no evidence of her actually doing harm to a child.
Again, the above statement is not ringing as true as it once did. Circumstantial evidence has been stacking up for a few months now.
"These allegations are of attacks. You will have heard words of poisoning, sabotage - words likely to have had an emotional impact on you.
These emotional words, like sabotage, poisoning, attacks---they did seem over the top a few months ago. But after seeing so many medical reports and observation logs about internal injuries, bleeding throats, purplish rashes, air bubbles in post mortem x-rays, those terms seem real and not imagined.
"You will have to refer to whether Letby is engaged in any of the attacks alleged.
Yes, that is the crux of the issue. Was she engaged in any of the alleged attacks?
"Using syringes to inject air? No. Tampering with bags of fluid - or poisoning them? No. Physically assaulting children? Smothering them?

Those^^^ allegations seemed so improbable when this case began. They seemed unbelievable. Yet the medical records showed that these incidents of injuries and deaths did happen, repeatedly, over a one year period.
 
  • #300
Sorry to ask this so late in the day but can someone remind me were any of the deceased babies given autopsies or scanned (if was a thing a that time) by the coroner's office?
 
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