UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Jayney404]

I guess I find it concerning that the on call consultant at the time Dr Gibbs said: “This shows (Child F) had been given a synthetic form of insulin but he was never prescribed this at this time and he should never have received it.”

Even if it was not imagined to be administered maliciously this should have been investigated to ensure there wasn’t an accidental recurrence.

Also these were collapses 7 and 12 I believe, in the context of other unexpected collapses I’d have expected further scrutiny.

For the avoidance of doubt it not blaming the clinicians at all, I can completely see how on a busy ward if a baby improves you move forward with relief rather than ruminate on single lab results.

JMO IMO if guilty

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I guess I find it concerning that the on call consultant at the time Dr Gibbs said: “This shows (Child F) had been given a synthetic form of insulin but he was never prescribed this at this time and he should never have received it.”

Even if it was not imagined to be administered maliciously this should have been investigated to ensure there wasn’t an accidental recurrence.

Also these were collapses 7 and 12 I believe, in the context of other unexpected collapses I’d have expected further scrutiny.

For the avoidance of doubt it not blaming the clinicians at all, I can completely see how on a busy ward if a baby improves you move forward with relief rather than ruminate on single lab results.

JMO IMO if guilty

I thought the NHS has internal processes for 'never events' no matter what the circumstances?

This is so terrifying.

 

[katydid23]

I think these questions of how the hospital should have caught the problem, show us how cunning , allegedly, this defendant really was. By changing up her MO so often, a pattern couldn't develop.First there are some sudden unexpected collapses---OK, that can happen. But then there are more, and it is shocking and confusing.Why the weird rashes and loss of consciousness? So then a child has a bloody, swollen throat, doctors start wondering how and why that happened. And they have a meeting about it...But the next issue is another purplish, moving rash and a desaturation to 30%, so no time to focus on the bloody throat for now. Then there is a new issue with something totally different, like projectile vomiting and internal injuries, or an insulin problem... so it does not seem like they were all connected. Other than the one common denominator.

 

[LadyL]

Good to see you here, and @Moll !

It's going to take a long time to read all these threads. If I was new to the case and wanted to get caught up, I think I might start with opening speeches (October 2022), and then jump to when LL took the stand, because we've not exactly had stellar reporting during the trial, there was a huge dip in journo attendance in the middle, and the gaps were nicely filled in once cross-exam started.

Opening speeches are on first two pages of the media thread.

Her evidence in chief starts on page 26 of the media thread which is linked in the first post of every discussion thread.

In the discussion threads this was 2nd May 2023, thread 19, also with all threads linked in first post of every thread.

thank you much - so helpful!

 

[LadyL]

dbm

 

[Marantz4250b]

So, are we back in court today or is this another legal discussion day?

 

[DianaWW]

So, are we back in court today or is this another legal discussion day?

Back in court today 'with the defence continuing to provide evidence' according to Chester Standard.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 14 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[JosieJo]

I guess I find it concerning that the on call consultant at the time Dr Gibbs said: “This shows (Child F) had been given a synthetic form of insulin but he was never prescribed this at this time and he should never have received it.”

Even if it was not imagined to be administered maliciously this should have been investigated to ensure there wasn’t an accidental recurrence.

Also these were collapses 7 and 12 I believe, in the context of other unexpected collapses I’d have expected further scrutiny.

For the avoidance of doubt it not blaming the clinicians at all, I can completely see how on a busy ward if a baby improves you move forward with relief rather than ruminate on single lab results.

JMO IMO if guilty

The consultant didn't know it was synthetic insulin till after LL left the unit

 

[katydid23]

I am so curious to see who Meyers brings in as his next witness. Will it be a medical expert, to dispute the Air embolisms, etc?

Will it be a former patient's parents from COCH , to talk about their experiences with suboptimal care?

Maybe a former coworker of LL's? [ would have to be someone retired already?]

A friend as a character witness?

 

[marynnu]

For Dotta.

Nick Johnson KC

7hs.co.uk

 

[Jayney404]

The consultant didn't know it was synthetic insulin till after LL left the unit

This is my point though it was discovered later when it was investigated.

This surely makes the two insulin cases weaker if at the time the levels were not seen as suspicious or concerning and there was no supposition that the insulin was introduced from an external source? How now in hindsight with no tpn bags can they say the levels were so aggregiously high it could only have been introduced from an external source?

These children Also both had twins who declined without explanation within days of these anomalous readings. In that context these cases should have raised more red flags.

I completely sympathise with the clinicians who were treating these babies and saving their lives in confusing and distressing circumstances.

My point is more that those sitting in management, arguably objective to the incidents were looking across mi. (We know this Mi was produced as the excess deaths were discussed between ll and doc choc). The raw data showing the rise in these events should have prompted action and the clinicians concerns should have been investigated rather than brushed off.

It got to the point where the consultants effectively conducted their own investigation and had ll removed. Then spent 11 months resisting her return. I’m incredulous and for me it’s unacceptable.

All this in a hospital with a team dedicated to patient safety!

IMO if guilty moo etc

 

[JosieJo]

This is my point though it was discovered later when it was investigated.

This surely makes the two insulin cases weaker if at the time the levels were not seen as suspicious or concerning and there was no supposition that the insulin was introduced from an external source? How now in hindsight with no tpn bags can they say the levels were so aggregiously high it could only have been introduced from an external source?

These children Also both had twins who declined without explanation within days of these anomalous readings. In that context these cases should have raised more red flags.

I completely sympathise with the clinicians who were treating these babies and saving their lives in confusing and distressing circumstances.

My point is more that those sitting in management, arguably objective to the incidents were looking across mi. (We know this Mi was produced as the excess deaths were discussed between ll and doc choc). The raw data showing the rise in these events should have prompted action and the clinicians concerns should have been investigated rather than brushed off.

It got to the point where the consultants effectively conducted their own investigation and had ll removed. Then spent 11 months resisting her return. I’m incredulous and for me it’s unacceptable.

All this in a hospital with a team dedicated to patient safety!

IMO if guilty moo etc

Low blood sugars are common in neonates ...and because when the bags ended the blood sugars returned to normal it wasn't considered suspicious.
Plus only 2 cases weeks apart.
If babies were dropping blood sugars daily left right and centre it would spark suspicion.
But just 2 cases that returned to normal fairly quickly wouldn't.

It was only discovered much later when a result that was only received after the baby was discharged was noted.

There would have been nothing suspicious at the time

 

[Marantz4250b]

This is my point though it was discovered later when it was investigated.

This surely makes the two insulin cases weaker if at the time the levels were not seen as suspicious or concerning and there was no supposition that the insulin was introduced from an external source? How now in hindsight with no tpn bags can they say the levels were so aggregiously high it could only have been introduced from an external source?

These children Also both had twins who declined without explanation within days of these anomalous readings. In that context these cases should have raised more red flags.

I completely sympathise with the clinicians who were treating these babies and saving their lives in confusing and distressing circumstances.

My point is more that those sitting in management, arguably objective to the incidents were looking across mi. (We know this Mi was produced as the excess deaths were discussed between ll and doc choc). The raw data showing the rise in these events should have prompted action and the clinicians concerns should have been investigated rather than brushed off.

It got to the point where the consultants effectively conducted their own investigation and had ll removed. Then spent 11 months resisting her return. I’m incredulous and for me it’s unacceptable.

All this in a hospital with a team dedicated to patient safety!

IMO if guilty moo etc

My understanding is not that it was the very high levels of insulin that showed it to be introduced rather than naturally occurring but, rather, the virtual absence of some hormone or chemical which you get only with synthetic insulin.

However, I cannot see how such a massive insulin level could have simply been passed over without some investigation as to what caused it. It was one of the highest insulin levels ever recorded anywhere (so I believe) and my understanding is that this sort of thing never happens naturally. Flags should have been raised immediately. Although I'm not medically trained so it's obviously just my feelings on the matter.

 

[Marantz4250b]

10:40am

The trial is due to resume at 11am.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 14 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Are they ever going to put a full day in, let alone a full week?

 

[JosieJo]

Based on what we know only the only actions that would need investigating are

What the on call manager did with the information when she received the info and declined the request to remove LL overnight...she was on call only

The nurse director actions when informed by the consultant

The medical director actions when informed my consultants

 

[CS2C]

Taken from the Chester Standard

Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, has told the trial judge, Mr Justice James Goss, this is day 129 of the trial.

He says to the court there is one witness to give evidence in relation to the sanitation of the hospital.

IS THAT ALL THEY HAVE !?

 

[Penny68]

@Jayney404 And ironically LL had been moved to the well-paid job in the hospital’s risk and patient safety office!.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

Taken from the Chester Standard

Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, has told the trial judge, Mr Justice James Goss, this is day 129 of the trial.

He says to the court there is one witness to give evidence in relation to the sanitation of the hospital.

IS THAT ALL THEY HAVE !?

Do you reckon the witness is a mop?

(Bad joke, my apologies!)

 

[DianaWW]

11:03am

Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, has told the trial judge, Mr Justice James Goss, this is day 129 of the trial.
He says to the court there is one witness to give evidence in relation to the sanitation of the hospital.

11:07am

Lorenzo Mansutti, who works at the Countess of Chester Hospital, has had many years of experience in plumbing.
He has provided a witness statement.
He says the plumbing in the Countess of Chester Hospital's Women's and Children's Building, between 2015-2016, had been built in the 1960s and 1970s, and says there were "issues with the drainage system".
He says he had to deal with "various blockages" and the cast-iron piping would crack for "a number of reasons" including age.
Asked what would happen if the pipes were blocked, he replies it would come back through the next available point, such as toilets or wash basins. He confirms that would include sewage.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 14 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[DianaWW]

11:11am

He says when alerted to it, it would come through the helpdesk, and it would be rectified "as quickly as possible".
He says he would be called out "weekly" to fix problems.
He says there was an occasion when they had a blockage in the room next door adjacent to the neonatal unit. He says a colleague attended it, the drainage had backed up and the neonatal nursery room 1 hand wash basin had "foul water" coming out of it.
He agrees with Mr Myers that "foul water" would include "human waste...sewage".
He says he is unable to confirm exactly when that happened during 2015-2016.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 14 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk