UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Sweeper2000]

Urm if we set aside the possibility that LL is a liar, can anyone think of any reasons why she would plead not guilty? The defence has been lacking anything Of substance. If there had been consistent and “massive“ hospital failings, the defence would have been able to bring witnesses forward to explain why these failings could account for the events but that’s a no and if bias was a feature in the cases i don’t think the circumstantial evidence would have clearly supported the prosecutions account.

 

[Eloise]

So I have a theoretical question— if she is guilty, how do you think she planned her crimes? Was each attack premeditated (hypothetical—when waking up that day— “oh today I think I’ll try insulin and see what happens! ”) or were these impulsive acts carried out in the moment?

I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around this, only if she’s guilty and IMO.

I'm thinking a lot of the info we don't have right now will come out later, particularly if she's found guilty. I think it'll be open season on all the info the journalists have on her but can't (yet) reveal.

Urm if we set aside the possibility that LL is a liar, can anyone think of any reasons why she would plead not guilty? The defence has been lacking anything Of substance. If there had been consistent and severe hospital failing, the defence would have been able to bring witnesses forward to explain why these failings could account for the events but that’s a no and if bias was a feature in the cases i don’t think the circumstantial evidence would have clearly supported the prosecutions account.

If she plead guilty that's 100% a jail sentence. If she pleads not guilty then at least there's the chance that you can go free even if it's only a 1%, 10% or 50% chance you get a jury who takes your side.

You'd only plead guilty IMO if a) there was a bargain on the table and you knew it was most likely you'd be convicted anyway and b) there was literally no chance any jury wouldn't convict, ie if there was CCTV of you committing the crime and all you could do was do some plea bargaining


I think her best chance at plea bargaining would have been to admit to incompetence but based on her testimony she does not seem to be the kind of person who would ever ever do that even if it meant going free. I think this regardless of her guilt or innocence.

edit: I'm assuming UK does plea bargaining?

 

[Sweeper2000]

So I have a theoretical question— if she is guilty, how do you think she planned her crimes? Was each attack premeditated (hypothetical—when waking up that day— “oh today I think I’ll try insulin and see what happens! ”) or were these impulsive acts carried out in the moment?

I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around this, only if she’s guilty and IMO.

Think it’s opportunistic and impulsive, hence the lack of a consistent pattern.

 

[notsure]

Closing arguments and then judge's summing up of the evidence will be between tomorrow and July 3rd when the judge has predicted the jury will be sent out to deliberate.

In Katy's post above, at 11.40:
The trial judge says he has to discuss his directions of law with the prosecution and defence before he can deliver them to the jury.
He says those will likely be presented to the jury on Thursday, and the jury will not be present in court 'for very long'.

Are the directions of law given separately to the summing up?

 

[Jayney404]

Low blood sugars are common in neonates ...and because when the bags ended the blood sugars returned to normal it wasn't considered suspicious.
Plus only 2 cases weeks apart.
If babies were dropping blood sugars daily left right and centre it would spark suspicion.
But just 2 cases that returned to normal fairly quickly wouldn't.

It was only discovered much later when a result that was only received after the baby was discharged was noted.

There would have been nothing suspicious at the time

The result was still returned though these must have been read regardless of whether the patient had been discharged.

The tests take 1-5 days to return so it can’t have been that much later as they’d have needed the baby to acquire the sample, both these patients also had twins who also collapsed at the same time but through suspected air embolism. Child f’s twin actually died I believe.

Albeit the cases were temporally distant from each other they were not distant from other unexpected nor unexplained events. This should have prompted a review.

IMO JMO if guilty

 

[Sweeper2000]

anyone want to place bets on how long the jury will consider the verdicts? I am guessing about two weeks.

 

[Tortoise]

In Katy's post above, at 11.40:
The trial judge says he has to discuss his directions of law with the prosecution and defence before he can deliver them to the jury.
He says those will likely be presented to the jury on Thursday, and the jury will not be present in court 'for very long'.

Are the directions of law given separately to the summing up?

Yes they are separate.

 

[Marantz4250b]

In Katy's post above, at 11.40:
The trial judge says he has to discuss his directions of law with the prosecution and defence before he can deliver them to the jury.
He says those will likely be presented to the jury on Thursday, and the jury will not be present in court 'for very long'.

Are the directions of law given separately to the summing up?

The directions are the judge's directions to the jury as to what legal rules they apply when coming to their decision. It will involve statute and Common Law (murder is a Common Law crime) and any legal precedents which must be applied. An important one is one we've discussed several times, that of attempted murder; to be convicted of AM the prosecution must have proved the state of her mind at the time she did the alleged acts. They must have shown that she specifically intended death to result and that that intention was unlawful.

 

[Legal]

The result was still returned though these must have been read regardless of whether the patient had been discharged.

The tests take 1-5 days to return so it can’t have been that much later as they’d have needed the baby to acquire the sample, both these patients also had twins who also collapsed at the same time but through suspected air embolism. Child f’s twin actually died I believe.

Albeit the cases were temporally distant from each other they were not distant from other unexpected nor unexplained events. This should have prompted a review.

IMO JMO if guilty

I think the evidence said that the results were phoned through but the doctor who received them was in training or something like that and didn't understand the implications.

 

[Jayney404]

So I have a theoretical question— if she is guilty, how do you think she planned her crimes? Was each attack premeditated (hypothetical—when waking up that day— “oh today I think I’ll try insulin and see what happens! ”) or were these impulsive acts carried out in the moment?

I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around this, only if she’s guilty and IMO.

Feels opportunistic, some of the events played into the existing medical issues. I think there was some level of planning due to her having ready made explanations for many of the events.

The timings also indicate this as some collapses happened within minutes of her entering the ward. She’s clearly been waiting to do it and wanted to do it early in the shift to ensure she got to see the full sequence of events unfold.

IMO if guilty

 

[Dcflag]

anyone want to place bets on how long the jury will consider the verdicts? I am guessing about two weeks.

That’s got to be the max for me.

Once they start to deliberate are we allow to poll or discuss our opinions on the verdict? Or is that a complete no go until the jury return a verdict?

 

[Jayney404]

I think the evidence said that the results were phoned through but the doctor who received them was in training or something like that and didn't understand the implications.

Ah ok, another missed opportunity, how sad

 

[DianaWW]

Urm if we set aside the possibility that LL is a liar, can anyone think of any reasons why she would plead not guilty? The defence has been lacking anything Of substance. If there had been consistent and “massive“ hospital failings, the defence would have been able to bring witnesses forward to explain why these failings could account for the events but that’s a no and if bias was a feature in the cases i don’t think the circumstantial evidence would have clearly supported the prosecutions account.

I think it's simply that she has nothing to lose. She wouldn't have had any credit for pleading guilty early (IMO) due to the severity of the charges, so this is literally her only shot of ever seeing the light of day again. JMO.

 

[Jazmania]

Urm if we set aside the possibility that LL is a liar, can anyone think of any reasons why she would plead not guilty? The defence has been lacking anything Of substance. If there had been consistent and “massive“ hospital failings, the defence would have been able to bring witnesses forward to explain why these failings could account for the events but that’s a no and if bias was a feature in the cases i don’t think the circumstantial evidence would have clearly supported the prosecutions account.

I think whether she pled guilty or was found guilty by a jury the sentence would be the same - a whole life tariff. So she may as well plead not guilty from that perspective. Also, from the evidence of the notes, I believe part of her really believes in some way that she is innocent. The deepest part of her admits she isn't (IMO).

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think it's simply that she has nothing to lose. She wouldn't have had any credit for pleading guilty early (IMO), so this is literally her only shot of ever seeing the light of day again. JMO.

Agreed here.

 

[Jazmania]

anyone want to place bets on how long the jury will consider the verdicts? I am guessing about two weeks.

I'm predicting 1 day

 

[Alternative Paradox]

That’s got to be the max for me.....

RSBM

Won't they, in effect, have 22 separate cases to consider though?

I would have thought two weeks might be on the 'rapid' side, even coming to an easily agreed verdict (and not a majority one) of two 'cases' per day takes it to two weeks minimum.

It would not surprise me if it took four weeks or more to reach the full 22 verdicts.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm predicting 1 day

I think longer. The attempted murder cases will be the ones which will require the most deliberation, I think.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

anyone want to place bets on how long the jury will consider the verdicts? I am guessing about two weeks.

I see it as five days max, but could be shorter.

 

[Sundial]

And Johnson took most of the wind out of the sails at the end:

Mr Mansutti agrees that one of the problems for the flooding was adults 'putting things down sinks'.
One incident is somebody 'forcing a wipe towel down a sink'. Mr Mansutti accepts an incident did take place.
He says none of the incidents led to no hand washing facilities availability, and there is a system in place.

work was done on moving sewage pipes away from the unit room in future, "so it couldn't happen again".
He says, for his recollection, it was a "one-off".

Mr Johnson says half the incidents listed did not take place in the neonatal unit. Mr Mansutti says there would not have been a direct effect on that unit for those days.


SO IT WAS A BIG NOTHING BURGER and Meyers had to end his defense case on it.

This makes me think back to the whole fundraising thing she was doing. I get it’s totally unacceptable and disgusting to have sewage problems like this etc, but, if guilty was she trying to create a worsening environment by causing harm, funding for the unit, face or hero of building unit, promotion etc?
I’m just shocked really that this is all the defence has. Wow. How long did that take? About 40 mins, less?

All JMO if guilty etc