UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Dcflag]

Just settled down to catch up on the defence case…

A plumber telling court about a couple of blocked sinks and pipes is almost amusing if it weren’t evidence in such a horrific case.

IMO BM shouldn’t have bothered with this witness, it’s an absolute anti climax and just shows how much the prosecution have on LL. All those months of evidence we’ve heard, witnesses, hospital records, diagrams, experts, in depth testimony about how TPN bags work, insulin, air embolism. I can’t even list everything we’ve heard from the prosecution. For the defence to start with LL’s constant contradictions then end with a plumber testifying about something that has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to babies collapsing and dying. Nothing to do with insulin or air embolism. Literally nothing atall IMO. Tells me a lot about what BM had to work with IMO.

I’m not shocked atall. I didn’t think there was any way of refuting the expert evidence but that’s JMO, any experts BM contacted whilst putting his case together IMO may have told him the same, that everyone contacted for an opinion by the defence agreed with the prosecution experts. Again JMO

So many routes he could have tried to go down, trying to refute the allegation of liver trauma being inflicted purposely, the allegation of overfeeding, the allegation of someone causing babies to bleed, the allegation of air embolus, he could have tried to prove a conspiracy, cover up, LL’s character…

The fact he hasn’t done any of those things tells me IMO that he couldn’t find anyone to refute the cause liver trauma, overfeeding, air embolism etc.. and if guilty, maybe more about LL’s character and past will come to light once reporting restrictions are lifted but that is JMO.

If found guilty I suspect the words ‘ineffective representation by counsel’ would come up IMO… maybe BM wants to get as far away from this case as possible as fast as possible.

Hardly worth getting everyone into court for the sake of 45 minutes.. surely the court knew that this was the last witness, why couldn’t the jury instructions begin immediately?

All MOO

I agree. I also think that in my absolute own opinion, her taking the stand wiped out his case entirely. If she didn’t take the stand there’s no way there wouldn’t be some kind of defence witnesses? Without her testimony there’s basically no defence. He must have had something planned that’s fallen through due to her own testimony imo.

 

[Tortoise]

They had two days in court this week discussing something, and we know it wasn't legal directions.

I suspect the defence had people clamouring to give their opinions, but they were either judged to be irrelevant to the facts of the case, or not experts.

JMO

 

[DianaWW]

Also, the judge giving 3rd July as a rough date for deliberations to begin, makes me think that NJ is going to have a closing argument lasting days and days IMO, I think he will be extremely thorough.

What can BM say? LL can’t recall and the plumber said there was a sink blockage? Can he talk about sub optimal care, staffing levels and mistakes in closings if he hasn’t presented any witnesses to testify to examples of this and LL ruled them out in majority of cases as being a factor… He can’t really rely on things that LL said in her testimony because most of what she said conflicted with what she said in police interview and then changed again during cross. I don’t think BM’s closing will last long at all MOO

If I recall correctly the prosecution opening speeches took days, and the defence took 3 hours. I think closing will be very similar. JMO.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I agree. I also think that in my absolute own opinion, her taking the stand wiped out his case entirely. If she didn’t take the stand there’s no way there wouldn’t be some kind of defence witnesses? Without her testimony there’s basically no defence. He must have had something planned that’s fallen through due to her own testimony imo.

Exactly, IMO she contradicted everything that he had planned his whole defence around. Then she ruled out staffing mistakes, sub optimal care and staffing levels as being a factor in each collapse on the stand to NJ. So what really could he present? A plumber that’s what…

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Exactly, IMO she contradicted everything that he had planned his whole defence around. Then she ruled out staffing mistakes, sub optimal care and staffing levels as being a factor in each collapse on the stand to NJ. So what really could he present? A plumber that’s what…

MOO

Well to be fair he did claw back some of the damage she did. He got her to say she can only put a nursing perspective on medical causes, and she wasn't in a position to know how staffing impacted the delivery or quality of care for other staff members.

JMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

They had two days in court this week discussing something, and we know it wasn't legal directions.

I suspect the defence had people clamouring to give their opinions, but they were either judged to be irrelevant to the facts of the case, or not experts.

JMO

IMO if they had any expert atall it could well have been a random doctor that retired in 2001 and has absolutely no experience in neonatal care…

MOO

Just my own opinion; but after the evidence heard from the prosecution, if I was a witness for the defence (eg character or colleague etc), I would certainly retract any previous agreement in support for the defence. I most definitely would not want any association with it. Understandable really- but if she was innocent and everyone liked her and was a good nurse etc, nice LL etc, *where* are these people giving evidence in supporting that? Shocking.

Moo

I’m beginning to suspect that if guilty there will be many revelations about LL’s character and past. IMO someone doesn’t go from being lovely, kind and caring, having no incidents or even a slight hint of being anything but a genuinely nice person in their entire life.. to an alleged serial killer.
The mask just has to slip at some point even for the worlds best manipulator there are a few people who couldn’t be fooled IMO.
Only if guilty
MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

Just sat down, ready to catch up on all the defence witness evidence from today, and...


... oh...

 

[Cluedoneit]

We don't really do plea bargains here, though (which is a very good thing, IMO). Also, you can't argue to be sent to a secure psychiatric facility if what you did was not caused by a psychiatric illness.

Both Ian Brady and Peter Sutcliffe were sent to a secure psychiatric facility after spending time in prison. In order to be placed in a secure Psychiatric facility, they just need to prove that she needs one now, not at the time the offences were committed.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Both Ian Brady and Peter Sutcliffe were sent to a secure psychiatric facility after spending time in prison. In order to be placed in a secure Psychiatric facility, they just need to prove that she needs one now, not at the time the offences were committed.

Yes, very true. As you say, though, she needs to prove that that's what she needs and it's whether she can which is the important bit. She's fit to stand trial so the suggestion that she's in need of a secure hospital doesn't really fit with that, IMO.

In the case of Peter Sutcliffe (and possibly Brady to a lesser extent), I get the impression that he was put in a secure hospital more from a management point of view as it caused fewer problems for all concerned.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I am literally SPEECHLESS.
Doesn’t happen often I must admit.

 

[Sundial]

Exactly, IMO she contradicted everything that he had planned his whole defence around. Then she ruled out staffing mistakes, sub optimal care and staffing levels as being a factor in each collapse on the stand to NJ. So what really could he present? A plumber that’s what…

MOO

Personally I genuinely was expecting something way more compelling for the defence today. Now I can’t help but feel as though it’s just an extract from Mario and Luigi. I can’t believe that’s all they had left.

Moo

 

[ColourPurple]

anyone want to place bets on how long the jury will consider the verdicts? I am guessing about two weeks.

Five days!

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

'An occasion'...as in it happened once? Don't get me wrong, it's disgusting and unacceptable, but it doesn't explain what LL is being accused of IMO.

I think it is to counter the impression that many people had of her, which is that she completely fabricated events which took place on the unit.

Many people on here expressed complete disbelief that any plumbing issue like this could have existed and that raw sewage could have been leaking into the unit. The Plumber is giving evidence that LL did not invent this.

So I think it is somewhat helpful in that counters the impression that she is wildly inventing things on the stand. But I agree that it doesn’t help in relation to the actual causes of the collapses.

 

[Jazmania]

From Myers' opening statement I expected the defence to be stronger than this. I mean Myers did a creditable job of introducing his theory of hospital failings, scapegoating, the babies being poorly or deteriorating before LL was on duty in his cross examination of the prosecution witnesses. But he really needed his own witnesses to testify to that effect otherwise it just looks so weak. In contrast to the prosecution's evidence it is just staggering.

 

[Marantz4250b]

From Myers' opening statement I expected the defence to be stronger than this. I mean Myers did a creditable job of introducing his theory of hospital failings, scapegoating, the babies being poorly or deteriorating before LL was on duty in his cross examination of the prosecution witnesses. But he really needed his own witnesses to testify to that effect otherwise it just looks so weak. In contrast to the prosecution's evidence it is just staggering.

It's completely and utterly unbelievable - but for the fact it actually happend!

As others have said, I do suspect that they had more than this but that people pulled out after hearing the prosecution witnesses and LL herself.

 

[Jayney404]

I’m sure the shredder was still keen to give evidence and attest to its intolerance to handover notes!

Farmyard noises, JMO etc etc

 

[Parker Knoll]

To me Letby taking the stand changed the way the defence were planning to run things completely, she must of insisted possibly, the narc in her rearing it’s ugly head again. I think they must of had “ experts “ lined up to refute the prosecution in some way and she utterly blew it for them, hence why we have only heard from the plumber. It’s utterly staggering in a case of this magnitude. After Letby going in the box as posters have said upthread nobody in their right minds would go in for the defence - it’s career suicide.
I say a few days for the verdict. Usually it’s a show of hands when they sit down and then work out from there.
Dear god what an absolute mess and I do think BM will be furious tbh.
Just my musings obviously.

 

[Lammergeier]

BM practically waving the white flag of surrender! Who’s the next witness, a librarian to testify that paper can climb into bags?

 

[MachinaCollecta]

To me Letby taking the stand changed the way the defence were planning to run things completely, she must of insisted possibly, the narc in her rearing it’s ugly head again. I think they must of had “ experts “ lined up to refute the prosecution in some way and she utterly blew it for them, hence why we have only heard from the plumber. It’s utterly staggering in a case of this magnitude. After Letby going in the box as posters have said upthread nobody in their right minds would go in for the defence - it’s career suicide.
I say a few days for the verdict. Usually it’s a show of hands when they sit down and then work out from there.
Dear god what an absolute mess and I do think BM will be furious tbh.
Just my musings obviously.

I thought from very early on when she took the stand that it was going to be a mistake. Even if she seemed assured in terms of her manner of reply, she did very little to help her case. I would argue she’s harmed it hugely.

 

[Jayney404]

From Myers' opening statement I expected the defence to be stronger than this. I mean Myers did a creditable job of introducing his theory of hospital failings, scapegoating, the babies being poorly or deteriorating before LL was on duty in his cross examination of the prosecution witnesses. But he really needed his own witnesses to testify to that effect otherwise it just looks so weak. In contrast to the prosecution's evidence it is just staggering.

This seems to be the only way in which BM and LL aligned. Both making staggering assertions then failing to remotely corroborate them with any evidence.

It was scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel to drag the poor handyman out to reel off his entire duties list for 2015/16 with only one incident baring relevance to the unit let alone case.

I get that it had to be done in the interests of a full and fair trial but I imagine it was far from the bang ll was looking to go out on.

JMO moo moo