UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

[ColourPurple]

Aa I undersrand it she only completed her specialist training early 2015. You wouldn't be able to apply for a Band 6 for some time after this, even assuming a post came up. The only thing that struck me was the length of time she was at CoC before starting the course, 2.5 years,or so, which serms quite long to me.

Yeah there's the 2013 article that says she was doing her ICU training in 2013 and had just completed a placement at Liverpool, but then it appears from what we've heard that she had only just finished it in 2015.


“I am currently undergoing extra training in order to develop and enhance my knowledge and skills within the Intensive Care area and have recently completed a placement at Liverpool Women’s Hospital."

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/74654/chester_standard_babygrow_page_1070kb__28.03.2013_.pdf

 

[Dotta]

Yes, it's still used here. It would be for a band 6 or 7, depending on the area of work.

I think "Sister" is an old fashioned term originating from Nuns who were nursing patients in former times.

And it is grounded in the language used by older generations.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Yeah there's the 2013 article that says she was doing her ICU training in 2013 and had just completed a placement at Liverpool, but then it appears from what we've heard that she had only just finished it in 2015.


“I am currently undergoing extra training in order to develop and enhance my knowledge and skills within the Intensive Care area and have recently completed a placement at Liverpool Women’s Hospital."

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/74654/chester_standard_babygrow_page_1070kb__28.03.2013_.pdf

I have a vague memory that this was not the specialist neonatal course, but something else, which had us - well, me! - a bit confused for a while. Hopefully somebody can remember the details!

 

[ColourPurple]

I have a vague memory that this was not the specialist neonatal course, but something else, which had us - well, me! - a bit confused for a while. Hopefully somebody can remember the details!

She'd also just moved back into hospital accommodation on 1st June 2015, after living in a flat in town for 6 months. So if she completed her ICU training and/or placement then too, there are quite a few changes around the time the alleged attacks began. She moved out of a flat back to the hospital, qualified in ICU care/completed a Liverpool placement and also completed a course in administering meds through along line.

For a time, Letby says she moved to a flat 'in town' in 2015, before moving back into Ash House 'towards the end of 2015'.

A page from Letby's 2015 diary is shown. A note, '*Ash House*', is on June 1, 2015. It is clarified that Letby had moved back to Ash House in June 2015, having moved out for 'about six months'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

10:35am

She said she did a three-year programme of nursing at the University of Chester, splitting her time between the university '50:50' and placements to gain clinical experience. The majority of her clinical experience was at the Countess of Chester Hospital, split between the children's ward and the neonatal ward.
She qualified as a band 5 nurse in September 2011.


11:13am

Mr Myers says for two of the babies in the case, there was a student being mentored, under Lucy Letby's supervision and guidance.
Letby says it would depend on their training stage, but it would be under her direct supervision.
Letby obtained her 'QIS' qualification allowing her to look after intensive care babies, following a university module, which included a placement at Liverpool Women's Hospital involving hands-on clinical experience. The six-month course concluded in March/April 2015.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

 

[ColourPurple]

10:35am

She said she did a three-year programme of nursing at the University of Chester, splitting her time between the university '50:50' and placements to gain clinical experience. The majority of her clinical experience was at the Countess of Chester Hospital, split between the children's ward and the neonatal ward.
She qualified as a band 5 nurse in September 2011.


11:13am

Mr Myers says for two of the babies in the case, there was a student being mentored, under Lucy Letby's supervision and guidance.
Letby says it would depend on their training stage, but it would be under her direct supervision.
Letby obtained her 'QIS' qualification allowing her to look after intensive care babies, following a university module, which included a placement at Liverpool Women's Hospital involving hands-on clinical experience. The six-month course concluded in March/April 2015.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

I wonder if she would have had to move out of the COCH hospital accommodation while she did the course/Liverpool placement, hence her living in a flat for 6 months?

 

[Tortoise]

Who was qualified to work where and do what does seem to have been a big issue for her, not only during the trial but at the time.

 

[IDK]

I wonder if her note about never having children was related to her hypothroidism:

“There is sometimes a link between hypothyroidism — when you have an underactive thyroid gland — and infertility in women.

With hypothyroidism, your thyroid gland doesn't produce enough of certain important hormones. Low levels of thyroid hormone can interfere with the release of an egg from your ovary (ovulation), which impairs fertility. In addition, some of the underlying causes of hypothyroidism — such as certain autoimmune or pituitary disorders — may impair fertility.”

How hypothyroidism affects fertility

For women, there's sometimes a link between having an underactive thyroid gland (hypothyroidism) and infertility.

www.mayoclinic.org

Of course, we know she was taking medication for the condition, but maybe her doctors told her it could be harder for her to conceive?

I’m not necessarily going anywhere with this, I just find it interesting. IMO, if guilty.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if she would have had to move out of the COCH hospital accommodation while she did the course/Liverpool placement, hence her living in a flat for 6 months?

Oh yes... that makes sense.

 

[Dotta]

Dbm

 

[esther43]

Yes, it's still used here. It would be for a band 6 or 7, depending on the area of work.

To expand on Mary's point band 7's are sometimes matrons. (Clinical nurse lead)
And then 'senior nurses' are usually one of the band 8 options and will often oversee the children's ward as well.
As you get higher up the division they may oversee 'womens and children's' so that may include maternity.
They can also have responsibilities in other areas of the hospital, as well as being more involved in the business side of the trust.
Not all senior managers are ex nurses.

 

[Tortoise]

So, did she rent a flat in Liverpool?

I think I read that she was using an empty flat of a friend, but I'd have to search back for a link.


eta -

Mr Myers is asking Ms Letby about her living arrangements in 2015/16. She lived in staff accommodation at Ash House, moved to a flat in Chester for around six months and then moved back into Ash House in June 2015.
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

I can't find anything about it being a friend's flat, so maybe I heard it on the podcast.

 

[Sundial]

Aa I undersrand it she only completed her specialist training early 2015. You wouldn't be able to apply for a Band 6 for some time after this, even assuming a post came up. The only thing that struck me was the length of time she was at CoC before starting the course, 2.5 years,or so, which serms quite long to me.

It’s definitely quite odd imo and what I also find interesting is we don’t actually know for sure if she qualified through the Diploma route or not. I have heard nurses who are referred to as having a degree in the subject and qualified via the diploma route but are not actually degree trained but “staff nurse” at band 5.

Changes to the qualifications confused a lot of people, from the old RGN to then separated specialisms (Adult, mental health and children’s) and they then started to withdraw the diploma programme completely (I “think” 2009-2010) with “degree only” training- but, there were still many universities who were continuing with the Diploma route until it was phased out completely. I actually recall some places continue with this route until about 2015-2018 (I think) but there were very few remaining. The introduction to the nursing associate (NA) programme isn’t too old tbh and sits between band 4 and 5.

I have some friends who have took this new NA programme, and are “topping up” into the final year of university to gain their full band 5 (registered nurse) status, lol. Many people complained claiming it was a pointless exercise in removing the diploma route when it appears as though (in some places) that the new NA programme is a reinvention of the Diploma pathway/staff nurse! Meddling with something that didn’t necessarily need fixing they suggested!

Irregardless, to the points I mention here, I do feel and JMO IMO (however it might vary slightly between locations here in the uk), that IF guilty, how long she was band 5 and her training etc and into ITU is a factor in the case somehow.

If guilty JMO
Moo

 

[Diddly1]

In response about an under active thyroid, I’ve had to take levothyroxine since I was really young. I had absolutely no problems at all falling pregnant, and after two children born 16 months apart I ended up divorced at 23 because I refused to have anymore, it was a blessed relief.

 

[Sundial]

Yeah there's the 2013 article that says she was doing her ICU training in 2013 and had just completed a placement at Liverpool, but then it appears from what we've heard that she had only just finished it in 2015.


“I am currently undergoing extra training in order to develop and enhance my knowledge and skills within the Intensive Care area and have recently completed a placement at Liverpool Women’s Hospital."

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/74654/chester_standard_babygrow_page_1070kb__28.03.2013_.pdf

What was her qualifying year? Can anyone recall? I wonder if we’re misinterpreting this.

Her placement at women’s sounds more like it’s her student placement and the ICU is the specialism. Example, one of my friends started first year at university and her first ever placement was HDU.

In this scenario, if she started her nurse training in 2013, and in 2015 she completed it; that is the 3 year training at uni; 2013-2015. Placing her at band 5.
To move from band 5 to 6 she would then need additional/ specialist training (ITU) experience; 2015-2016.

I could be completely wrong, of course.
Moo

 

[Tortoise]

So Mr Myers is perhaps brainstorming for ideas of how to fill up four days this week, over the one he had prepared for, after Friday's guidance from the judge.

Just kidding! It's too hot today for that.

He did have LL on the stand for five days. NJ had LL on the stand for eight and a bit days. There's material there, plus his cross-examination of the experts and the remaining witnesses.

 

[Dotta]

So Mr Myers is perhaps brainstorming for ideas of how to fill up four days this week, over the one he had prepared for, after Friday's guidance from the judge.

Just kidding! It's too hot today for that.

He did have LL on the stand for five days. NJ had LL on the stand for eight and a bit days. There's material there, plus his cross-examination of the experts and the remaining witnesses.

But what can be "reasonable doubt"?

 

[ColourPurple]

What was her qualifying year? Can anyone recall? I wonder if we’re misinterpreting this.

Her placement at women’s sounds more like it’s her student placement and the ICU is the specialism. Example, one of my friends started first year at university and her first ever placement was HDU.

In this scenario, if she started her nurse training in 2013, and in 2015 she completed it; that is the 3 year training at uni; 2013-2015. Placing her at band 5.
To move from band 5 to 6 she would then need additional/ specialist training (ITU) experience; 2015-2016.

I could be completely wrong, of course.
Moo

She qualified in 2011

She said she did a three-year programme of nursing at the University of Chester, splitting her time between the university '50:50' and placements to gain clinical experience. The majority of her clinical experience was at the Countess of Chester Hospital, split between the children's ward and the neonatal ward.
She qualified as a band 5 nurse in September 2011...
...
Letby obtained her 'QIS' qualification allowing her to look after intensive care babies, following a university module, which included a placement at Liverpool Women's Hospital involving hands-on clinical experience. The six-month course concluded in March/April 2015.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

What was her qualifying year? Can anyone recall? I wonder if we’re misinterpreting this.

Her placement at women’s sounds more like it’s her student placement and the ICU is the specialism. Example, one of my friends started first year at university and her first ever placement was HDU.

In this scenario, if she started her nurse training in 2013, and in 2015 she completed it; that is the 3 year training at uni; 2013-2015. Placing her at band 5.
To move from band 5 to 6 she would then need additional/ specialist training (ITU) experience; 2015-2016.

I could be completely wrong, of course.
Moo

She qualified 2011 and started working on the neonatal unit January 2012.

 

[esther43]

Thanks for sharing that about EP— interesting she was called by the judge! I will go look for her testimony and read up this weekend.

Hopping off from your post, IIRC, LL’s doctor friend started working there Jan , 2016. By that time, weren’t there already suspicions about ll, or was it just generalized suspicions at that point? I wonder if his doctor colleagues warned him of their concerns so he could keep a close watch? If not, I wonder why? IMO, if guilty.
( other than the general disbelief that anyone could harm babies purposely which is totally understandable)

Ah thanks for pointing out the 2016 error. It was an assumption on my part because he didn't pop up in the case until a little way along.
Also re EP being called by the judge, it's not a fact but as she was called between the point that the prosecution rested and the defence began (with Lucy) this would suggest it was the judges decision.