UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

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  • #801
Regarding the insulin, has there been any suggestion by prosecution as to where LL would have acquired it and has there been a clear method of getting it into the babies suggested? Has there been any evidence to go some way to proving it?
 
  • #802
dbm duplicate
 
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  • #803
Perhaps because they had questions to ask her that they hadn't asked?

She could have been declared a hostile witness for the prosecution at that point, to permit them to cross-examine her, I don't know though.
What is a hostile witness?
 
  • #804
Regarding the insulin, has there been any suggestion by prosecution as to where LL would have acquired it and has there been a clear method of getting it into the babies suggested? Has there been any evidence to go some way to proving it?

Insulin is kept in the ward fridge, accessible by anyone with the keys. The only logical possibility is that it was added to the TPN/dextrose bags, as the hypoglycaemia problem was so prolonged.
 
  • #805
I think NJ KC has played a blinder with the post-it note.

He's hardly touched on it, except for getting her admissions that she had a very busy social life, a house, a car, a boyfriend and a good job, as to call her out on her answers to why she wrote she would never marry or have children being that she was isolated for two years and no one would want to marry her because of her redeployment and mistakes. She even answered to Mr Myers questions on re-examination "Because despite what is going on, you have to find some kind of quality of life."

In his closing arguments NJ said -

"However, prosecutor Nick Johnson KC told Manchester Crown Court yesterday that the note should be viewed as a ‘confession’.

He said it was not, as she claimed, ‘the anguished outpourings of a woman in fear and despair’ at having been moved away from the frontline nursing job she loved.

It should be taken ‘literally’, he told jurors."

Lucy Letby's chilling note should be taken 'literally', court hears


"He says the point is very simple for the notes overall - the notes contain admissions,"...

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 22 - prosecution closing speech



I think he didn't get into analysis of the wording of the note, ie. "I killed them on purpose", as BM did with her, because NJ is avoiding an appeal issue (if convicted) that the note could have different interpretations, was therefore prejudicial and should have been excluded and the prosecution relied on the note as a substantial piece of evidence, and instead he wants the jury to focus their deliberations on what the evidence over the whole year shows. It also takes the wind out of the sails of BM before he's even left port, because he can't now say that the prosecution were over-focused on what she wrote because they need to shore up their case.

The note seems to have been a fairly large part of BM's opening remarks, in terms of his perceived need to downplay it's significance, when in reality it seems to have only been no more than a brief reveal at the end of the prosecution's four-day opening:-

11:39am

"On another piece of paper, she wrote: 'I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough”.
“'I am a horrible evil person' and in capital letters, 'I AM EVIL I DID THIS'.
"That, in a nutshell," Mr Johnson tells the court, "is your case."

11:40am

That is the conclusion of the prosecution opening."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

JMO
That all makes sense. I was having similar thoughts, about why NJ didn't spend much time on the notes, during his cross examinations with LL. And I think now that he didn't want to give her time to give one of her phoney explanations, to muddle up the issue.

It seems they are stronger evidence if the jury is just left to read them and interpret the meaning on their own.
 
  • #806
Insulin is kept in the ward fridge, accessible by anyone with the keys. The only logical possibility is that it was added to the TPN/dextrose bags, as the hypoglycaemia problem was so prolonged.

Thanks for the info. I had ducked out of following this thread at one point. It seems to be the suggestion / assumption that the insulin must have been injected into the TPN bags as that's the only way it could have got in.

Would LL have had access to the storage fridge and the syringes required and also have been able to dispose of them?

I'm wondering this as I wonder if insulin comes in other forms like maybe oil based drops that you take in the mouth or something (eta - I am aware of how insulin is supposed to be administered).
 
  • #807
Just trying to get my thoughts together, does this seem right from what we’ve heard so far?

Qualified 2011 band 5 (3 year training; est 2008-2011)

2012: started at Chester unit
2012; mentorship course

2013; ICU training (placement at LW) possibly only completed 2015

QIS 6 month course from around Oct/Nov 2014-concluded March/April 2015
*moved out of ash house for 6 months
1st June 2015 (returned to Ash House)
2015-2016; Alleged cases
 
  • #808
What is a hostile witness?
I am not a lawyer but I will give you my layperson's understanding and I have no idea what law it stems from, but a hostile witness is a witness who isn't cooperative with the party calling them, giving the court the powers to declare them as hostile and so the party calling them can cross-examine them and/or ask leading questions. The jury wouldn't know about it.

JMO
 
  • #809
11:10am

Letby adds she completed a mentorship course so when students came in, she could be their sole mentor at work. She qualified as a mentor "fairly early on", 'probably in 2012.'
She says she "really enjoyed that aspect".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins
The sole mentor of students in this unit?

But why would she want it?
If IRC, she texted about a student in a disrespectful way, as if "something unpleasant glued" to her.

Maybe she wanted some "Brownie points" with her boss?
Or is it required for promotion?

JMO
 
  • #810
Thanks for the info. I had ducked out of following this thread at one point. It seems to be the suggestion / assumption that the insulin must have been injected into the TPN bags as that's the only way it could have got in.

Would LL have had access to the storage fridge and the syringes required and also have been able to dispose of them?

I'm wondering this as I wonder if insulin comes in other forms like maybe oil based drops that you take in the mouth or something (eta - I am aware of how insulin is supposed to be administered).

Insulin can't be administered orally as it's ineffective. LL would have had access to everything you mention, as would all the staff.
 
  • #811
The sole mentor of students in this unit?

But why would she want it?
If IRC, she texted about a student in a disrespectful way, as if "something unpleasant glued" to her.

Maybe she wanted some "Brownie points" with her boss?
Or is it required for promotion?

JMO

Dotta, it means to be the sole mentor for a particular student, instead of a second mentor. All qualified nurses have to undertake this role.
 
  • #812
Dotta, it means to be the sole mentor for a particular student, instead of a second mentor. All qualified nurses have to undertake this role.
I see.
It was written "their sole mentor",
so I thought "plural" :D

From Tortoise's post above

"Letby adds she completed a mentorship course so when students came in, she could be their sole mentor at work. She qualified as a mentor "fairly early on", 'probably in 2012.'
She says she "really enjoyed that aspect".

It is ambiguous IMO.
 
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  • #813
IMOO -

In the midst of an apparent media witch hunt against the defendant - I sincerely hope the defence team delivers substance in the closing arguments next week. As opposed to a continuing spectacle of baring witness to fair justice in fond memory.

I think that’s absolute nonsense but I respect your right to say it.
 
  • #814
Just trying to get my thoughts together, does this seem right from what we’ve heard so far?

Qualified 2011 band 5 (3 year training; est 2008-2011)

2012: started at Chester unit
2012; mentorship course

2013; ICU training (placement at LW) possibly only completed 2015

QIS 6 month course from around Oct/Nov 2014-concluded March/April 2015
*moved out of ash house for 6 months
1st June 2015 (returned to Ash House)
2015-2016; Alleged cases

I don't think she had ICU training 2013?
 
  • #815
I am not a lawyer but I will give you my layperson's understanding and I have no idea what law it stems from, but a hostile witness is a witness who isn't cooperative with the party calling them, giving the court the powers to declare them as hostile and so the party calling them can cross-examine them and/or ask leading questions. The jury wouldn't know about it.

JMO
Interesting. It does make me curious about whether she was hostile towards the defence or the prosecution. The fact the defence went first makes me think perhaps it was them that wanted her to testify, whilst the prosecution thought they should leave her out.
 
  • #816
Interesting. It does make me curious about whether she was hostile towards the defence or the prosecution. The fact the defence went first makes me think perhaps it was them that wanted her to testify, whilst the prosecution thought they should leave her out.
Ordinarily, the prosecution can't cross-examine their own witness.
 
  • #817
I see.
It was written "their sole mentor",
so I thought "plural" :D

From Tortoise's post above

"Letby adds she completed a mentorship course so when students came in, she could be their sole mentor at work. She qualified as a mentor "fairly early on", 'probably in 2012.'
She says she "really enjoyed that aspect".

It is ambiguous IMO.
I have to add, I have been in environments where there is more than one mentor. In this case it can be because of staffing issues and they cannot always guarantee the student can work every single shift with their named mentor.
Not all qualified nurses take on mentoring responsibilities either in my experience. It varies.
JMO
 
  • #818
I have to add, I have been in environments where there is more than one mentor. In this case it can be because of staffing issues and they cannot always guarantee the student can work every single shift with their named mentor.
Not all qualified nurses take on mentoring responsibilities either in my experience. It varies.
JMO
Oh well,
Everything concerning her seems ambiguous.
I give up :D
 
  • #819
I don't think she had ICU training 2013?
I may have overlooked this then. I think this is what interests me, between 2013-2014 appears a bit strange with the whole training thing. It’s not that clear but is reported she was at LW (additional placement/training) around that 2013 time. I can’t work it out.

JMO
 
  • #820
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