UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Yes, good to remember this. It's his job after all to create the doubt.

But... How will he deal with the parents whose accounts disagree with Letby's?

He had better tread VERY carefully there or he will win the prosecution case for them quickly IMO.

He can make very reasonable comments on the reliability of memory, and the fact that parents and other staff were first interviewed by police a few years after the event, and so the memories will have faded by that point, and possibly faded further now.

That may work for some parts of the evidence, but there are some accounts where in my opinion, I don’t think you can legitimately argue that a parent is misremembering something. For baby E’s mum, unless they were going to show that she was on heavy duty painkillers post birth which caused hallucinations, I don’t see how it can be argued that she is mistaken about seeing her baby with blood all around his mouth and screaming.

 

[Tortoise]

10:27am

The trial is now resuming, in the presence of all 12 jurors.

10:28am

Benjamin Myers KC, for Lucy Letby's defence, will now give the closing speech.

10:30am

He says he has been sitting next to the jury for nearly nine months, and can hazard a guess at what they may be thinking - 'five days' [for the expected length of his speech].
He says he is grateful for their presence and the material they have had to listen to, and its 'distressing' content.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

10:32am

He says what struck him when listening to the prosecution, was that what Letby has done/not done, said/not said - that 'made her guilty'.
He says it's "as if the prosecution have a theory" and no matter what the evidence is, or isn't, is treated as to keep that theory going. He says it "doesn't matter how inconsistent that theory is" and that "different standards are applied to Lucy Letby".
"Everything is treated as evidence of her guilt".

10:34am

He cites examples by the prosecution case - her presence when something happens, or not being present, or just leaving the unit, or just turning up for her work. Her making a note, or not making a note - 'guilty'.
He says if she signs for medical records, or signs for others - 'guilty'.
A baby in her care doesn't show signs of deteriorations - guilty. A baby does show signs of deteriorations - guilty.
He says it is "twisting and turning". She cries when giving evidence - guilty. She doesn't cry when giving evidence, or doesn't cry at the right times - guilty.

10:36am

He says there is 'not one occasion of Lucy Letby doing one of the harmful acts alleged against her.'
Mr Myers: "Not guilty."
He says "just about everything became an allegation against Lucy Letby".
He says what is really at work is "the presumption of guilt", and the prosecution case is "fuelled" and "riddled" by it.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[esther43]

10:27am

The trial is now resuming, in the presence of all 12 jurors.

10:28am

Benjamin Myers KC, for Lucy Letby's defence, will now give the closing speech.

10:30am

He says he has been sitting next to the jury for nearly nine months, and can hazard a guess at what they may be thinking - 'five days' [for the expected length of his speech].
He says he is grateful for their presence and the material they have had to listen to, and its 'distressing' content.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

" I knows whatcha thinking! 5 days!" Lmao

 

[Tortoise]

10:39am

He says he would ask the jury to look at the "presumption of innocence", which is "like a bucket of cold water over everyone at this point". He says "that's the way it works" - "that someone is innocent until proven guilty", that the jury consider the evidence is "fair and balanced".
He says "five days is a lot to listen to" - today and into tomorrow is an overview of the defence case, then he will go through the counts individually in the closing speech.
He adds he recognises the "enormity" of what the jury have to go through.

10:42am

He says the information presented has been a "spaghetti soup" of data and evidence, some of which "carries little weight at all".
He says the jury must look at the detail presented.
He says it is the jury's views that matter on the evidence.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[CS2C]

I hope he isn't going to waffle on like this for 5 days....My lord

 

[Tortoise]

10:46am

He says that Letby being drawn into agreeing with things in cross-examination that she could not have known cannot be conclusive. He cites Letby being asked about staffing pressures, or the unit taking on too many babies.
He says the jury can draw "common sense conclusions" over all the evidence presented. He says Letby is "in no position to settle the issues" [on the unit].
He adds the issues in the trial being discussed are "harrowing and heartbreaking", and cannot be more serious, and 'nothing he says is to diminish the loss' suffered by parents. He says the defence feel upset and "overwhelming sympathy" for them.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[SleepyJoe]

I am starting to feel quite anxious ‍! The evidence against LL seems so overwhelming to me and NJ KC's closing was very powerful. If BM KC's closing is equally powerful, then what will the poor jury think?! I hope and pray that true justice is served, whatever the jury ultimately decide ......

 

[Tortoise]

10:51am

He says the emotional reaction to such serious, upsetting and sensitive charges "is to convict". He says the jury have to be "very careful" on the conclusions reached.
He says the prosecution "characterise" Letby, which "they are entitled to do", and he says the jury "must be alert to that".
He says the language of 'attack', 'gaslighting', 'sabotage', 'you're enjoying yourself', 'your favourite way of killing', playing god', 'calculating', 'manipulative' was sometimes "on the thinnest of evidence...or no evidence at all".
Mr Myers says Letby was in 2015: "She's a 25-year-old band 5 nurse, an excellent one - that's what she was, looking after dozens, if not hundreds of babies...day after day."
He says "you saw the real person" in her evidence and cross-examination, that she could "remember pieces of evidence" in the years she has been waiting for her trial: "There's little else to do in prison, isn't there?"
She was also "scared, anxious and struggling to hold it all together".

10:54am

Mr Myers cites "plausible deniability" as "if it was a done deal", "setting up cover".
He says the prosecution set up questions and answered them as "Lucy Letby", without referring to evidence.
He says the way Letby was dealt with in cross-examination was "bad".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

I am starting to feel quite anxious ‍! The evidence against LL seems so overwhelming to me and NJ KC's closing was very powerful. If BM KC's closing is equally powerful, then what will the poor jury think?! I hope and pray that true justice is served, whatever the jury ultimately decide ......

This throwing a "bucket of cold water" really scared me

 

[esther43]

This throwing a "bucket of cold water" really scared me

Ice cold buckets of water, bowls of spaghetti soup and that was just five minutes in. Wonder how many more analogies he'll come out with before the week is up.

 

[ColourPurple]

10:51am

He says the emotional reaction to such serious, upsetting and sensitive charges "is to convict". He says the jury have to be "very careful" on the conclusions reached.
He says the prosecution "characterise" Letby, which "they are entitled to do", and he says the jury "must be alert to that".

Hmm, after all the evidence the jury have heard it's a tad patronising to dismiss any thought they may have that she could be guilty, as being merely an "emotional reaction".

I'd find that annoying were I on the jury, but I guess he's just doing this job.

 

[SleepyJoe]

This throwing a "bucket of cold water" really scared me

This is going to be a real nail-biter finish to this trial I think. I can't imagine what all of those parents are going through! When I started uni straight after school I started in law and did one year before changing to biological sciences/ medicine. Right now I am so glad I did that, I just don't have the stomach for such difficult cases as this one! There's such a lot at stake here either way.

 

[Tortoise]

10:46am

He says that Letby being drawn into agreeing with things in cross-examination that she could not have known cannot be conclusive. He cites Letby being asked about staffing pressures, or the unit taking on too many babies.
He says the jury can draw "common sense conclusions" over all the evidence presented. He says Letby is "in no position to settle the issues" [on the unit].
He adds the issues in the trial being discussed are "harrowing and heartbreaking", and cannot be more serious, and 'nothing he says is to diminish the loss' suffered by parents. He says the defence feel upset and "overwhelming sympathy" for them.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I just want to reply to him here.

It's her case that these issues caused the collapses and deaths. If she can't cite the issues under cross-examination there's a big problem with her defence, because it suggests it's not actually her defence, someone else came up with it for her!

She was perfectly capable of answering "I can't comment on that" when it suited her.

This is the proverbial smoke. IMO

 

[esther43]

Hmm, after all the evidence the jury have heard it's a tad patronising to dismiss any thought they may have that she could be guilty, as being merely an "emotional reaction".

I'd find that annoying were I on the jury, but I guess he's just doing this job.

It immediately made me think of NJ's assertion that the defence are gaslighting the jury.

 

[Tortoise]

10:59am

He says Letby has been in prison, and in the dock, surrounded by 'commendable' prison dock officers, "standard measures". He says to 'look how this looks' for her in comparison to the witnesses who have come in. He says this is presented as an "inherent disadvantage".
He says the jury must "get past the emotions" and "look at the evidence".
He says there are two possibilities of what happened between June 2015-June 2016. He says one of the possibilities is the result of a medical condition, and a condition of the unit - the clinical fragility of the unit, and failings in care at the unit.
He says is the other is a nurse who "decided to kill children" or "tried to kill them" for reasons "which make no sense" and "out of the blue".
He says there was a "marked increase" in the number of babies taken on in the unit during that year. He says it was "too many" babies being admitted to the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit with "too many" high requirements.
He says the babies were vulnerable as they were in the neonatal unit. He says what some people have said during the trial in evidence, that the babies were "doing brilliantly" there, "boggles the mind".
He says it is "no good brushing aside" the issue of sub-optimal care for the babies.

11:04am

Mr Myers says "the stand-out point" is "not once is there any evidence" of the acts of harm being done.
He says this is "the first time" the defence case has been set out.
He says the "suspect account" of Dr Ravi Jayaram "doesn't come close" to an account of an attack in progress, nor does the mother of Child E's account.
He says there are 22 counts, and 30 events, over 12 months, and "nothing" in evidence of Letby carrying out an attack.
He says that was despite Dr Jayaram saying it was "all eyes on Letby" after Child D.
Mr Myers adds the jury can use "circumstantial evidence" to highlight sub-optimal care.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue

Lucy Letby's defence barrister Ben Myers KC is due to begin his closing speech at Manchester Crown Court today. The nurse has been on trial for the last nine months for the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of a further 10 at the Countess of Chester Hospital




2:09 AM · Jun 26, 2023
·

 

[Dotta]

It immediately made me think of NJ's assertion that the defence are gaslighting the jury.

Is this metaphor of "pouring cold water" an allusion to the plumber as the only exert?

 

[Marantz4250b]

If I were him, I’d go in hard on Doctor Evans and the baby C stuff and the Court of Appeal comments on Doctor Evans’ reliability.

The insulin cases are interesting. The whole saga about the second TPN bag for baby F was very interesting and based on the reporting I have read, never ultimately resolved. Myers could take the approach that there was a second TPN bag which was poisoned and LL wasn’t on duty for that so it can’t have been her - and then to build on that to say that if she didn’t poison the second TPN bag, that means someone else did, which in turn casts doubt on all of the charges on the basis that they can’t be two alleged murderers operating on the ward at the same time independently of one another.

But I don’t think that is going to work having read the judge’s first round of instructions to the jury where he said that if the jury is sure that LL is guilty of one offence, they can take the view that she is guilty of the other charges where it has been shown that a third-party caused the collapse. And the fact that the judge says they don’t have to have answers to everything and don’t need to have decided in detail exactly what happened or how. This seems to suggest that if the jury is sure that LL poisoned the first TPN bag (or maybe just even sure that she is responsible for baby L ), they can convect her for baby F, even though they aren’t clear on how exactly the second TPN bag was tampered with or indeed have not resolved whether there was in fact a second TPN bag.

It’s going to be fascinating to hear. I do wonder what Myers’ actual aim is at this stage. Obviously he’s going to try his absolute best to get LL not guilty verdicts for everything ( as he is obligated to do so). But behind the scenes, I wonder whether their realistic aim is to try to limit the number of guilty verdicts. I’m not sure why it would ultimately matter in practice, because as we have observed, all it will take is probably one guilty verdict and LL will get a whole life tariff . In that respect, it doesn’t matter if she is found guilty of 12 charges or 15 charges (for example).

JMO .

Re: the bolded part in your third paragraph. I don't think he said that at all. What I think he said was something along the lines of; if you are sure she did one, then you may conclude that she had intent to do the other attempted murders if you can find that they are sufficiently similar.

What you are saying is that they can find her guilty if she's done something and even if someone else ultimately intervened by doing something unlawful. That brings in far more convoluted legal issues relating to causation which would have required huge amounts of explanation and direction from the judge

 

[SleepyJoe]

Mr Myers says "the stand-out point" is "not once is there any evidence" of the acts of harm being done.
He says this is "the first time" the defence case has been set out.
He says the "suspect account" of Dr Ravi Jayaram "doesn't come close" to an account of an attack in progress, nor does the mother of Child E's account.

Okay.... hold it right there!
Insulin evidence, anyone?!
Saying Dr J's evidence of what happened with baby K is "suspect"? Really?! You've lost me right there Mr Myers.....
ETA I accidentally first put Baby E, I meant Baby K for which Dr J found her standing by doing nothing over her in the incubator desaturating.