UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Whitehall 1212]

3:37pm

We've had a short adjournment.
Mr Myers KC is going to discuss some general points raised today with Dr Evans.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:39pm

Mr Myers asks if the procedure for intubation would be different in a neonatal unit at 3am, compared to that in a lecture on a training dummy.
Dr Evans: "The procedure for intubating a baby would be the same."
"The atmosphere would be quite different?"
"No."
He adds the atmosphere might be different in an ambulance, for example.
Dr Evans says there is a "limit" to what you can learn from the videos.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:40pm

Dr Evans: "What you have is, if you have a baby that requires resuscitation, by definition that is the sickest baby in the unit and requires treatment by the most experienced doctors and nurses."
Mr Myers: "I am talking generally. Would the atmosphere in a generally functioning unit, such as fitting a cannula, be different?"
Dr Evans: "Well of course it would."

 

[Rhomal]

12:30pm

The court is hearing from a list of agreed facts - ie, evidence agreed by the prosecution and defence.
The hierarchy of the Countess of Chester Hospital staff is being explained to the court.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 14

THE trial of Lucy Letby, the former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse accused of seven baby murders and attempting to murder 10 more, resumes today…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Interesting as I’ve been wondering whether she had a line manager as such. No mention of her managers.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:41pm

Dr Evans adds the size of premature babies would vary, from about 600g to over 2kg, and would generally be smaller than that of the mannequin seen in the video.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:43pm

Dr Evans explains how intubations may not be possible, generally due to "swelling in the surrounding area", in the cords and epiglottis area.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:46pm

Mr Myers explains the role and clinical experience gained by a neonatologist by working in the unit, which can include "discussions with colleagues" and "variations in different patients and conditions".
Dr Evans agrees.
Sometime the differences can be "subtle", Mr Myers says.
Dr Evans says: "It can depend on each case."

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:47pm

Mr Myers says Dr Evans is not a consultant neonatologist.
"I'm a consultant pediatrician," Dr Evans responds.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:48pm

"The bulk" of Dr Evans' experience is via the unit he set up in the 1980s-2007/8, Mr Myers says, with much of that in the 1980s, alongside other pediatric duties.
"In that sense, you were not working exclusively in neonatology," Mr Myers says.
"That is correct," replies Dr Evans.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:56pm

Mr Myers details Dr Evans' CV and says his duties are shared between neonatology and pediatrician.
Mr Myers: "Would you agree you didn't have day-to-day sole experience [of neonatology] over a period of years?"
Dr Evans: "I don't really agree - I'll tell you why. We were where we were in the 1980s as neonatology, which was relatively new. Our generation was inspired to improve the services.
"Because there were so few consultants around, you had greater contact with babies than with 10 neonatologists.
"The other consultants deferred to my interests in neonatalogy development.
"My experience was huge.
"Our on-call system was one in four. I was on call every one in four weekends.
"In the 80s and 90s I was looking after neonatals in Swansea and Neath.
"My hands-on experience of developing neonatal experience is, I am more than happy to say, is as extensive as anybody's.
"I attended neonatal courses...You can attach labels all you want, but in terms of the neonatal experience is...extensive.
"I reckon I could intubate a baby today. It's like riding a bicycle.
"I am very happy with my neonatal experience, expertise and background."

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:57pm

Mr Myers says Dr Evans had not seen a Phillips machine monitor.
Dr Evans said a Hewlett-Packard machine was used in his experience, and had introduced them to the hospital.

 

[arrogantcat]

I've thought about that note overnight and am struck by how many people have just assumed she wrote it in anguish or despair, because that's what the defence have said or they relate it to personal circumstances.

No one know what state of mind she was in. Like John Worboys, she could have been plotting out her excuses for WHY she killed them because:

1. (Remorseful defence) on purpose, I am evil
2. (Self pitying defence) because i'm not good enough to care for them, I will never have kids/marry
3. (Indignant defence) I haven't done anything wrong
4. (Blame defence) Police victimisation, slander, discrimination
5. Feelings to demonstrate to police depending on which defence is used - I can't breathe (Remorseful), I don't deserve to live or deserve mum and dad etc (Self pitying), Why me (indignant), panic/fear (blame)

Writing on a post it note with doodles of a cat shows me she wasn't that anguished. Because you have to really concentrate on getting everything into a teeny tiny post tit. When you're anguished, it's not easy to focus in that way. Also the pen pressure looks different so it looks like it was written at different times. Why return to the same note unless she was just updating her ideas and wanted it in one place. She was methodical, we know this from how she writes down everything, so it makes sense that she wanted everything on one post it if they were all linked thoughts - all linked to her defence excuses.

I''m very curious to see what other notes they found at her home.

I do feel she has a more calculating air about her because she messaged people to say she was bored, unfulfilled, days were slow - just after babies had died on her watch! Then got defensive (as per messages) when she was being questioned by a senior consultant - surely you'd expect to be questioned if you've been present at all the unexplained incidents.

Also the very methodical notes on understanding who made allegations and what was the evidence. She didn't crack at interview and knew how to evade questions even in 2020. She strikes me as someone calm, collected and analytical not hysterical.

MOO.

The notes, to me, sound like the kind of notes I take when talking to somebody on the phone. Jotting down questions and key phrases. If, for example, a lawyer friend had said “as far as the press is concerned you are evil, you did this” I might have summed that up with “I am evil, I did this”.

Totally speculative but an example of how flimsy this type of evidence is.

Between that and the fact I never delete any photos from my phone’s camera roll, I suspect you could frame me for several murders by this standard of evidence!

MOO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:59pm

Mr Myers said Dr Evans retired from clinical practice in 2009, and was not working in neonatology in 2015/6. Dr Evans agrees.
Dr Evans says his interest has been in child safeguarding since.

 

[Tortoise]

The gist of the defence questioning seems to be that Dr Evans is out of date.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

3:59pm

Mr Myers: "This case has involved you in a great deal of neonatology.
"That hasn't been the case before, has it?"
Dr Evans: "It has, actually. In clinical negligence, a lot of the cases invovled babies.
"I have kept fully up to speed with neonatal practice."

 

[arrogantcat]

3:43pm

Dr Evans explains how intubations may not be possible, generally due to "swelling in the surrounding area", in the cords and epiglottis area.

Presumably they will be targeting this data at the accusation surrounding one of the babies having blood at the back of the throat.
MOO

 

[merrypason]

The notes, to me, sound like the kind of notes I take when talking to somebody on the phone. Jotting down questions and key phrases. If, for example, a lawyer friend had said “as far as the press is concerned you are evil, you did this” I might have summed that up with “I am evil, I did this”.

Totally speculative but an example of how flimsy this type of evidence is.

Between that and the fact I never delete any photos from my phone’s camera roll, I suspect you could frame me for several murders by this standard of evidence!

MOO

Yes, this could be a reasonable explanation too, and why we certainly need more context.

 

[notsure]

It does make me wonder why they chose Dr Evans as their expert, seeing that he hasn't had extensive recent hands-on experience on a neonatal ward.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The gist of the defence questioning seems to be that Dr Evans is out of date.

Yes, looks that way.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

4:03pm

Mr Myers: "Would you agree the optimal position would be current clinical practice?"
Dr Evans: "I think the important thing is clinical experience.
"You develop your professionalism through the whole of your career. You do not spend the whole of your 40 years attached to an exclusive clinical scenario."
Myers: "Clinical practice evolves over years."
Dr Evans: "It does."
M: "If you are not in practice, you are at a disadvantage?"
DrE: "No - you don't simply forget, the day you finish."
M: "I am not suggesting you have forgotten, but if new approaches are made -"
DrE: "If you can tell me of any new approach, then do so, but babies...do not change in the approach of their conditions, and that has not changed in the past 10 years."