UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #4

[Tortoise]

4:02pm

Mr Myers examines the staffing levels at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit.
'For babies in intensive care, it should be one nurse to one baby', he tells the court, and 'one nurse to two babies' for high-dependency babies, and 'one nurse to four babies' in the nursery room, he tells the court.
Rotas would be relayed to staff "a month in advance", Miss Taylor says.
"If they [the neonatal unit] were busy", then some nurses would be asked to come in "at short notice".

4:06pm

Miss Taylor explains the shift leader gives the hand-over to the new nurses coming in for the following shift in a 'huddle', lasting '10-15 minutes'. The shift leader would be a 'band 6 nurse'. The shift leader is "usually pre-allocated", but could change.
There would be a 'handover sheet' with babies' names and an outline of care provided the previous shift.

4:07pm

Mr Myers: "And that handover sheet would be kept by him or her throughout the shift?"
Miss Taylor: "Yes, that's correct."

4:08pm

"Generally," that handover would last until about 8pm, the court hears.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

 

[Charlot123]

I had my son christened in a&e after death and I had my daughter christened on the ward.

They use a sprinkling of water. You can hold the baby throughout, or they can be laying down anywhere (my daughter was just on the hospital bed). There are no rules regarding health. The chaplain doesn’t even actually have to physically touch the baby if it’s not no possible.

The chaplain brings the water. In our case we used the same hospital chaplain both times. We aren’t actually religious particularly but after our son died they asked if we wanted him christened, I didn’t want to regret it so we did. It’s offered to all dying or deceased.

Thank you very much for explaining it.
So sorry for you losing your son, and for what you had to go through. Wishing best of health to you, your daughter and your whole family.

 

[Supernovae]

UVC = Umbilical Venous Catheter

Indeed I think they show one being inserted in the BBC documentary upthread.

 

[Tortoise]

4:13pm

Mr Myers explains that some duties "require two nurses", such as administering medication and checking it is correct.
Mr Myers points to a section of the intensive care unit chart for Child A, where a different nurse to the designated nurse has signed for the observations at 4am on June 8. The designated nurse has signed for other hours including 2am, 3am and 5am.
He asked Miss Taylor: "There is absolutely nothing unusual about that, is there?"
Miss Taylor responds: "No."

4:18pm

The court is now adjourning for today.
Mr Myers will continue to ask Miss Taylor to give evidence tomorrow (Thursday, October 20).
We will provide updates throughout the day.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

 

[Marantz4250b]

You beat me to it by a few seconds!

So, that undermines the suggestion that LL being with a baby she wasn't allocated to was an absolute no-no. Indeed, it was "nothing unusual".

Edit: sorry, edited that to something completely different. The original was the same post as Tortoise had made.

 

[notsure]

Indeed I think they show one being inserted in the BBC documentary upthread.

In the case of Child A, it was positioned incorrectly twice by a trainee doctor before LL came on duty, I believe? So the baby hadn't had the expected fluids for a length of time.

 

[Charlot123]

Digital forensics would reveal how she went to the pages and whether they were suggested 'friends' on Facebook or she typed their names in and hit search.

But she was looking up so many parents on quite a few different occasions (even Christmas Day!) it is of my opinion she was typing their names in and hitting search.

MOO.

Christmas Day doesn't sound good at all. Not at all.

 

[JosieJo]

You beat me to it by a few seconds!

So, that undermines the suggestion that LL being with a baby she wasn't allocated to was an absolute no-no. Indeed, it was "nothing unusual".

Edit: sorry, edited that to something completely different. The original was the same post as Tortoise had made.

It would totally depend on the circumstances really...it would be normal when a nurse was on a break for example it would be normal for another nurse to deal with another child.
It will be whether the prosecution can show whether LL seemed to be intervening unnecessarily.
For example I remember a previous mention from the opening where it was said on one occasion the nurse in charge had to remind LL to care for her own baby ..Will need to see what comes up

 

[annpats]

We aren’t actually religious particularly but after our son died they asked if we wanted him christened, I didn’t want to regret it so we did.

That's a lovely decision to make, and the right one. I hope it gave you some peace.

Thank you for your helpful comments, they are much appreciated on such a difficult subject.

 

[JosieJo]

People are misreading what I'm writing. I'm NOT disputing that she made the searches. I'm questioning the nature and relevance of them.

Clicking a name from the previous search drop-down is not the same as typing out a name. It has been claimed that the prosecution has said that she physically typed the names out. They have never claimed that, as far as I am aware.

As I say, if you are searching for something else and you see someone's name on the drop-down it's tempting to click on it even though you didn't go there to search for them, especially if that person has had some significant impact on your life. The intent is what matters.

We would have to see what the defence say about this I would think if they do not challenge the term "search" or try to put a different meaning on it then it's likely she searched specifically...but that may come out later possibly

 

[Tortoise]

You beat me to it by a few seconds!

So, that undermines the suggestion that LL being with a baby she wasn't allocated to was an absolute no-no. Indeed, it was "nothing unusual".

Edit: sorry, edited that to something completely different. The original was the same post as Tortoise had made.

But I think observations are heart rate, respiratory rate and temperature, (from her earlier evidence) which presumably would be copying down data the machinery is displaying. Where it could be slightly more unusual is with things like administering fluids and taking blood gasses, but I don't know.

 

[JosieJo]

But I think observations are heart rate, respiratory rate and temperature, (from her earlier evidence) which presumably would be copying down data the machinery is displaying. Where it could be slightly more unusual is with things like administering fluids and taking blood gasses, but I don't know.

I agree yes unless there was a sudden deterioration whilst a nurse was on a break or dealing with another sick child she can't leave it would be unusual for a nurse to intervene with other babies other than routine observations etc

 

[Dcflag]

That's a lovely decision to make, and the right one. I hope it gave you some peace.

Thank you for your helpful comments, they are much appreciated on such a difficult subject.

Thank you, it was definitely the right choice for us. We have our daughter the chaplains name as a middle name, it was just, right for us.

You’re welcome, it’s been many many years now but I think it’s probably the one unique insight I do have in this case

 

[Tortoise]

3:54pm

Miss Taylor said she would have started writing up a nursing note, but Child A then started deteriorating, so the note would not have been saved on the computer.
She said she would have been able to see Child A's incubator when sat at the computer.
She said: "Lucy Letby was standing by the incubator. Initially I stayed there [when Child A started deteriorating] as he was fairly stable and Lucy Letby was there, but when I realised he was not recovering from deterioration I got up to help Lucy Letby."
She said the baby monitor would have alarmed.
Miss Taylor said she is unable to say how long she had been away from the incubator, and thinks it was after the dextrose was administered.
Miss Taylor said she thought Child A was going to recover "quite quickly" as such desaturations were not that uncommon, but when it became clear he was not going to recover she went to help.
"I kept thinking he was going to recover, but he didn't."
Miss Taylor said she was not directly involved in the resuscitation, but involved in getting adrenaline medication.
The following day Miss Taylor was called back to the hospital to finish the notes which had not been completed at the time, 'due to the trauma of what had gone on'.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

This is the line that bothers me -

from this nurse's evidence -

"Miss Taylor said she is unable to say how long she had been away from the incubator, and thinks it was after the dextrose was administered."

I think it was this administration of fluid where they are alleging that LL injected air?

In other evidence we've heard that "Records show a nurse other than Letby (my note; presumably Miss Taylor) is 'using the computer' at 8.14-8.15pm, where she is referring to the family of Child A and B being updated on the condition of Child B."

I am really surprised that it's unclear whether she was with LL when the dextrose was administered, and if she didn't remember this at the time she was interviewed why she was asked this in court today, by the prosecution. According to the reporting she wasn't reminded of her witness statement if she did give a different answer before.

 

[Charlot123]

I really struggle to justify anyone remembering an anniversary of a death

We have different memory, i know someone who has excellent memory for random numbers, including phones, birthdays and deaths. In itself remembering a patient baby's death is not damning at all, but I'd expect such a person to remember and congratulate other people with their birthdays, for example.

 

[Charlot123]

Just thinking out loud also ...many unusual things can be justified with other reasons...but I do start to wonder how many unusual things I have to justify in a case

Well, presumption of innocence dictates me asking, "is it already a solid proof, or not yet"? However, other questions, like "where were the doctors on that unit?", or "where was the doctor observing the trainee inserting a line?" constantly pop up, to be honest.

 

[Tortoise]

"Paediatric registrar Dr Sally Ogden clocked off on June 8 before Child A’s rapid deterioration on the night shift. [...]

Dr Ogden returned to duty for the following day shift and she and her team were told by a fellow doctor that Child A had died during the evening, the court was told.

In a witness statement, the registrar said: “I remember this came as a big surprise. It was completely out of the blue and very upsetting.

“(Child A) showed no signs of any problems throughout the day. He was handling well.

“I had no concerns at all for him or his twin sister.”"

Death of baby in Lucy Letby case came ‘out of the blue’, says witness

 

[JosieJo]

This is the line that bothers me -

from this nurse's evidence -

"Miss Taylor said she is unable to say how long she had been away from the incubator, and thinks it was after the dextrose was administered."

I think it was this administration of fluid where they are alleging that LL injected air?

In other evidence we've heard that "Records show a nurse other than Letby (my note; presumably Miss Taylor) is 'using the computer' at 8.14-8.15pm, where she is referring to the family of Child A and B being updated on the condition of Child B."

I am really surprised that it's unclear whether she was with LL when the dextrose was administered, and if she didn't remember this at the time she was interviewed why she was asked this in court today, by the prosecution. According to the reporting she wasn't reminded of her witness statement if she did give a different answer before.

It may be because mostly nurses check the bag or infusion then the 2nd nurse would walk away and carry on with other things while nurse 1 would stay alone and carry on with setting it up.
It might have been (not totally sure) that the prosecution wanted to clarify to the jury that just because 2 nurses have to check an infusion doesn't mean they are both present at the exact time of administration...if that makes sense

 

[notsure]

"Paediatric registrar Dr Sally Ogden clocked off on June 8 before Child A’s rapid deterioration on the night shift. [...]

Dr Ogden returned to duty for the following day shift and she and her team were told by a fellow doctor that Child A had died during the evening, the court was told.

In a witness statement, the registrar said: “I remember this came as a big surprise. It was completely out of the blue and very upsetting.

“(Child A) showed no signs of any problems throughout the day. He was handling well.

“I had no concerns at all for him or his twin sister.”"

Death of baby in Lucy Letby case came ‘out of the blue’, says witness

"No signs of any problems throughout the day."

I guess the incorrectly placed catheter, which resulted in a lack of fluids for a couple of hours, was no cause for concern.

 

[notsure]

So far, I've heard nothing that points to LL as doing anything wrong, apart from "taking her work home with her" or being too emotionally invested in the families involved.

Looks like there were failings in the unit as a whole.