UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #4

[Noseyposy76]

The Facebook searches could be explained away but didn't Lucy say that she can't remember searching most of them? It's been agreed that she searched frequently the parents of all children under her care, but she said when questioned that she can't remember. I don't think she'll take the stand as it's too risky. When questioned, she would have been better off stating that she searches everyone so can't remember any specific names.

This is it, the way the prosecution has presented this/what has been interpreted on here is LL has denied all knowledge of ever searching any of the families. I agree it is one thing saying that you can’t ever remember when there is the evidence, but it is certainly another if you are saying you can’t remember the specific date. I believe this hasn’t been established yet.

 

[Charlot123]

A nurse carrying out such searches is quite likely extremely unethical. I don't think it's at all unusual that she might lie about making them given that.

Maybe unethical. However, if LL used to do it before the babies in NICU started dying, in 2012 or 2013, or during, i.e., there is no change in behavioral pattern, then it may be insignificant in the context of the accusation.

 

[ShireChe]

This isn't going to be a case with a smoking gun is it. No single piece of evidence will prove guilt. It will just be a case If cumulatively the evidence presented is too much to ignore. If it's enough to make the jury sure

I don't think there can be. If there was she would have been charged after either of the 2 earlier arrests. I'd have thought its either an accumulation of evidence or additional expert statements that gave CPS a view to proceed with the charges.

But there is a long way to go and I do not envy the jury one bit. It looks like they are going to have an incredibly difficult job with this case

 

[Noseyposy76]

I don't think there can be. If there was she would have been charged after either of the 2 earlier arrests. I'd have thought its either an accumulation of evidence or additional expert statements that gave CPS a view to proceed with the charges.

But there is a long way to go and I do not envy the jury one bit. It looks like they are going to have an incredibly difficult job with this case

Exactly it is very early on, so I don’t know how anyone can have such strong opinions either way at this stage. I would need a lot more than one ambiguous post it note and as another poster pointed out, subjectively unethical, but not prohibited - Facebook searches!

 

[JosieJo]

Just noticed a few things that made me think.
Mostly (although not presented by LL or defence yet) people feel she may have searched the parents out of concern or to see how they are doing but reading this
"An analysis of her internet use also revealed that she carried out repeated Facebook searches on Baby A's mother – the first of them at 9.58am the morning after his death."
At this point she would have not long got home after her shift. She would have known exactly how the parents were doing ..in her own words she had just witnessed the father sobbing on the floor.

 

[Tortoise]

8:29am

The trial of Lucy Letby, the former Countess of Chester Hosptial neonatal nurse who denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more between June 2015 and June 2016, continues today (Thursday, October 20).
We will be bringing you updates throughout the day, as Countess staff have been giving evidence in connection with the cases of Child A and Child B.
A reminder that none of the babies/children listed as alleged victims in the case can be identified in any way due to reporting restrictions. The 17 children are being identified as Child A to Child Q.

10:00am

When the trial resumes this morning, Letby's defence, led by Ben Myers KC, is expected to continue to question nurse Melanie Taylor about the night Child A died on June 8, 2015.

10:33am

The trial has now resumed.
Mr Myers asks Miss Taylor about the layout of the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit.

10:38am

Mr Myers said Child A would have required "constant observation" despite being deemed "stable" in the neonatal unit. Miss Taylor agrees.
He added that pre-term babies would also be "prone to infection". Miss Taylor agrees.
Mr Myers: "They can be prone to collapses, can't they?"
Miss Taylor: "I don't know if I would agree with that, exactly."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

The trial of Lucy Letby, the former Countess of Chester Hosptial neonatal nurse who denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

10:44am

Mr Myers said a baby fitted with a UVC would be 'intensive care'. Miss Taylor agrees. Child A had become an 'intensive care baby' during the day shift as he had required.
Mr Myers said Miss Taylor would have been looking after an intesive care baby (ITU), as well as another baby which required a lot of care - which falls outside the guidelines.
"In terms of ITU, they technically are intensive care, but not as intensive - some babies require a lot of hands-on, one-to-one care. Some technically become ITU, but in terms of care, they are more like HDU."
Mr Myers: "Were there, at the time, a lot of poorly babies?"
Miss Taylor said that particular shift was a busy one, she recalls. She accepts that an increased number of poorly babies coming into the unit would create an increased demand on nursing staff.

10:45am

Mr Myers asks why a baby's temperature would not necessarily be recorded every hour on the chart.
Miss Taylor says the temperature records involve putting a thermometer under the baby's arm, which the "babies don't like", while a heart rate is done on the monitor, while the respiratory rate would be manually counted through observation.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

10:49am

Mr Myers asks if handling babies (for example, to take their temperature) could led to an increase in the baby's stress, which would lead to an increased risk of deterioration.
Miss Taylor: "...to a certain degree, yes."
She adds if a temperature is recorded for one hour in a stable reading, the baby's temperature would not necessarily be taken on the following hourly check.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[JosieJo]

I know its in persute of the truth but I really feel for these medical staff having their practice and the unit questioned in court in trying to look for anything to distract the jury no matter how trivial..jmo

 

[Tortoise]

10:55am

Melanie Taylor's nursing note for June 8 is shown to the court, at 1pm.
It documents the insertion of the UVC for Child A.
Miss Taylor said she cannot remember the two attempts of insertion of the UVC, but sees it is made on her notes.
The note, written at 7.05pm, says: "UVC in wrong position, reinserted...again in wrong position. Cannula tissued. Doctors busy on ward 30. Aware no fluids running for a couple of hours. Long line inserted by Reg Harkness. awaiting X-ray. Remains settled on NCPAP. Enteral feeds of donor expressed breast milk started at 1ml/2hourly."

10:59am

The intensive care chart is shown to the court, showing 'cannula tissued' at 4pm.
Miss Taylor explains she might have written 'cannula tissued' retrospectively, so it could be before or after 4pm when that was noted.
Mr Myers said Miss Taylor would have had to wait for a doctor to put a long line in.
Mr Myers: "You said it was very busy - and that caused a delay, didn't it?"
Miss Taylor: "Yes."

11:05am

Mr Myers: "It's important to make sure the tip of the long line is in the right position, isn't it?"
Miss Taylor: "Yes."
"It's a sterilised procedure? It's very thin."
"Yes."
Miss Taylor says she's not too familiar with the long lines as she is not involved with the procedure.
The judge clarifies Mr Myers' question, asking if it is important to get fluid in once the long line is in place. Miss Taylor agrees.

11:08am

Miss Taylor says she is not aware of anything that might have been running through the long line prior to the 8pm 10% dextrose administration.
Mr Myers adds "the conventional practice" is for fluids to be administered immediately in the long line after it is inserted.
"Yes. Ideally we would get an x-ray first."
Mr Myers says there was a delay because the doctor was delayed elsewhere.
Miss Taylor: "I think so."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[notsure]

I know its in persute of the truth but I really feel for these medical staff having their practice and the unit questioned in court in trying to look for anything to distract the jury no matter how trivial..jmo

I don't think they are trivial issues, and if they bring to light failings in the unit as a whole, so much the better. It sounds like a lot of hospitals around the country - understaffed and other issues, leading to sub-optimal care for patients.

 

[Tortoise]

11:12am

Miss Taylor is asked about the retrospectively written note at 9.28pm on June 8, which begins.
"Observations stable, pink, well perfused. UVC still insitu, but in wrong position, to be used if no other access available.
"Long line inserted by reg Dr Harkness, secured, x-rayed. 10% dextrose run through and connected to long line."

11:17am

An observation chart showing the respiration rate is 'elevating', Mr Myers says, throughout the day is shown to the court.
"Yes, a little," replies Miss Taylor.
A blood gas record chart shows the lactate levels had increased on the records of 12.13am, 6.37am and after 2pm, with levels at 1.6, 2.6 and 2.7. The latter two readings are, Mr Myers says, outside of the desired area. No other records are given.

11:21am

Miss Taylor says she does not know what time the long line was inserted.
Mr Myers says there was a delay in getting the x-ray.
Miss Taylor: "From memory, I cannot remember the timings, but possibly."
Letby's notes, written retrospectively, read: "Glucose commenced via long line...UVC remained in situ from day shift, instructed line not to be used by registrar.
"[Child A] noted to be jittery, was due to have blood gas and blood sugar taken.
"At 8.20pm [Child A] hands and feet noted to be white. Centrally pale and poor perfusion..."
Mr Myers: "He should have been getting fluids during this four-hour period, shouldn't he?
Miss Taylor: "Yes."


LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

11:24am

Miss Taylor says she cannot remember whether it was herself or Lucy Letby who administered the fluids.
Mr Myers said "two nurses" are involved in the process, and one has to be in sterile conditions.
Miss Taylor: "I honestly don't know whether it was me or Lucy [who was in sterile clothing]."

11:26am

The defence say it was Miss Taylor who was the one in sterile clothing for the fluid administration, with Lucy Letby assisting. Miss Taylor says it could have been that, or the other way around.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

11:30am

Mr Myers: "When the deterioration commenced, you were at your computer making notes?"
"Yes."
A note by Miss Taylor is made at 8.18pm for Child B.
"It shows you were at the computer at 8.18pm?"
"Yes."
"Was Dr Harkness also in that room?"
"I don't remember."
"You could see where [Child A] incubator was, and the alarm sounded."
"Yes."
"When you went over to Child A, could you recall whether he was breathing or not?"
"I don't recall."
"Would it be fair to say that what followed makes it difficult to recall - that there is a lot of activity surrounding the cot?"
"When you realise that extra support is needed, yes."

11:31am

"Lucy Letby went to supoort the family at one point, do you recall that?"
"I don't remember that."
Miss Taylor says if Letby was the designated nurse, she would be involved with assisting the resuscitation attempts.
She adds that designated nurses would often be the one to provide support to the family afterwards.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

11:32am

Memory boxes, Miss Taylor says, are collated with permission of the family.
Mr Myers: "Do you recall about whether there was any discussion about whether the fluid bag should be kept?"
Miss Taylor: "I don't recall that, no."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

11:39am

Miss Taylor is presented with an interview transcript, dated February 7, 2018, one of a series of interviews she had involving babies in her care at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
The interview says Miss Taylor believed that sometimes, babies collapsed with no explanation.
Miss Taylor: "When I said that, that is what I believed to be true - whether that's my rational brain, trying to rationalise what happened."
Mr Myers reads from the statement: "It's a shock to us, because we have such a low rate."
Miss Taylor: "That is what I believed, that was my opinion at the time. I tried to rationalise what happened at the time. Whether that's true - I'm not medical - but that was my opinion at the time."
The prosecution say this interview concerned a different set of twins.
Miss Taylor: "I feel like I shouldn't have said that - I tried to rationalise that, because as a nurse, that is what I tried to do."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

11:43am

The prosecution shows the intensive care chart to the court again, focusing on the feeding records between 4pm-8pm.
The feeding of expressed breast milk at 4pm and 6pm were "trophy feeds". Miss Taylor explains small amounts of food are for the stomach to be lined so it could help get the stomach used to future feeds.
A 6pm 'output' of 25mls of urine is noted. Miss Taylor says that is weighed via the nappy - a "tried and trusted method", the prosecution say.
"Does that show fluids were passing through [Child A]?"
"That does."
"Does it follow that fluids that go out must have gone in?"
"It does that fluids that have gone in through the day, yes."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

My note - Presuming we are now on redirect with the prosecution.

 

[Tortoise]

11:48am

Blood gases records were noted by the defence as "being outside the optimum range".
The prosecution say with those records in mind, was Child A still 'stable'?
Miss Taylor: "Yes."
She explains the elevated respiratory rate was not uncommon, and other symptoms, such as the baby grunting, would be noted as part of a bigger picture. The elevated respiratory rate and blood gas level would not be, in isolation, uncommon, but still "relevant".
Miss Taylor says she does not remember Child A being "jittery", and had not documented it in her notes. She says if she had seen Child A being jittery, she would have noted it.
She adds it would be considered as part of a bigger picture. "It does not necessarily [mean] a concerning cause, but it is something to consider."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[Tortoise]

11:49am

That concludes Miss Taylor's evidence for Child A and B.
The court hears she will be asked to return to court to give evidence on other babies.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 20

 

[JosieJo]

I don't think they are trivial issues, and if they bring to light failings in the unit as a whole, so much the better. It sounds like a lot of hospitals around the country - understaffed and other issues, leading to sub-optimal care for patients.

Trivial might not be the best description but it is very worrying...and its already happening especially on social media..where non medical/nursing staff are jumping on small pieces of information that really are not such a big deal ..that's not meant as a criticism its understandable and I hope the jury are given the background to deal with it.

Prime example the prosecution has just gone back to the witness and put into prospective the points the defence were "trying" to make albeit unsuccessfully.

I just feel for the staff