UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[Powermjp]

I will say that pyschopath traits in females manifests slightly differently to males, the majority seem to be male so that's what is more well known and more is written about. So it's likely a female one could act different to a male one from what I've read.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yes i think the motive is an interesting one, i do remember one quote of her saying it would be “cathartic” for her “to see a living baby in the space previously occupied by a dead baby”. That as a stand alone comment isn't hugely worrying, could even be religious, but with the evidence and context of this case, her behaviour is building a picture (with the parents, the note etc). That comment could be seen differently.

If she is guilty, Is it possible she got some sort of high from that, one baby going and a new one coming in. There is something known as the psychopaths high, which they get from killing, or other extreme activities.

But who knows.

Interesting use of the word “cathartic” by Lucy kind of fits with the thought that the confession note was nothing more than an attempt to expel unwanted thoughts and feelings ie done for cathartic reasons. It points to Lucy having thoughts and feelings she didn’t want or was uncomfortable with? Suggesting conscientiousness which is always missing in psychopaths, key element in them is that being missing.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I will say that pyschopath traits in females manifests slightly differently to males, the majority seem to be male so that's what is more well known and more is written about. So it's likely a female one could act different to a male one from what I've read.

True. They tend to be less violent. You could suggest that a lower proclivity for violence lends credence to the idea that were she a bonafide psycho she would use less lethal means of inflicting damage, rather than throttling people she would poison them. Someone suggested this is a thing a risk averse person would do which would fit were it not for the fact that the term “psychopath” doesn’t fit atm.

 

[Kemug]

I also struggle with what possible motivation LL could have had to want to (allegedly) murder all these babies. What could she have had against innocent babies? Or their parents? (I am presuming she didn't know the parents beforehand, and had something against them, or we would have heard.) If she had been nursing in a nursing home, would more than usual numbers of old people have died? Or likewise in a general hospital? Were her (alleged) victims babies because of her location, not because they were babies?

 

[notsure]

I understand that some killers are attracted to working in a certain environment because it gives them access to their potential victims.

But to go to the extent of studying hard to get a nursing degree... The dedication required to get to her level... Her reputation as a nurse would benefit from saving lives, not taking them. It's so hard to imagine any motivation that would allow her to throw away all her training and expertise.

 

[BuzzC]

I understand that some killers are attracted to working in a certain environment because it gives them access to their potential victims.

But to go to the extent of studying hard to get a nursing degree... The dedication required to get to her level... Her reputation as a nurse would benefit from saving lives, not taking them. It's so hard to imagine any motivation that would allow her to throw away all her training and expertise.

It’s hard to believe, but it happens. It has happened before.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I understand that some killers are attracted to working in a certain environment because it gives them access to their potential victims.

But to go to the extent of studying hard to get a nursing degree... The dedication required to get to her level... Her reputation as a nurse would benefit from saving lives, not taking them. It's so hard to imagine any motivation that would allow her to throw away all her training and expertise.

To be honest I would rule out the possibility that the babies were targeted deliberately for being babies. I have never heard of anything that would say it was a thing and if it’s not documented it’s really not likely. Not harming children is something uniquely human and present across nearly all cultures and countries, it’s innate to people one of the few things that is. Yeh on the motive front aside from the “feelings” we don’t have anything as of yet. We really would need way more than we currently have to assume an elevated level of psychopathy and I mean wayyyyy more and I’m confident the prosecution would have mentioned it if they did have something at the start. They just stated “she was the constant malevolent presence” without anything to back that claim up.

That’s the way I’m looking at it. The medical evidence can point this way and that way and so long as there are no particularly strong indicators that she did actually administer fatal poisonings like if someone actually saw her administering something she definitely shouldn’t have been then that alone isn’t enough which is what the defence has stated. I would however have strong suspicions were Lucy’s past noted behaviours been in line with something conclusively unusual and perhaps malevolent. We have seen more of the opposite currently. In short is incidences + definite responsibility + dubious character = probably did it. We don’t have any of those three things currently aside from that note which is why I concentrate on it. The note isn’t strong enough and too many holes.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It’s hard to believe, but it happens. It has happened before.

Examples?

 

[BabaVanga]

Examples?

Examples?

Jimmy saville, David fuller…. And on and on and on.

 

[BuzzC]

Examples?

Apparently we can’t give examples of ‘similar’ crimes.

If you search for ‘U.K. nurse’ and ‘murder’ and ‘babies’ you’ll find details of a case from the 1990s

 

[BabaVanga]

Examples?

17 Serial Killer Nurses Who Murdered Their Patients

Medical professionals are supposed to help people, but there have been several serial killer nurses who ended the lives of their patients, instead. Some of these nurses haven't become as infamous as serial killer doctors like H. H. Holmes. However, this doesn't mean their crimes against humanity...

www.ranker.com

 

[notsure]

Jimmy saville, David fuller…. And on and on and on.

These aren't people who studied hard to become highly qualified in a caring profession.

 

[BabaVanga]

These aren't people who studied hard to become highly qualified in a caring profession.

Correct but they used their work surroundings to find and target victims

 

[notsure]

Correct but they used their work surroundings to find and target victims

Yes, quite a different matter.

 

[BabaVanga]

Yes, quite a different matter.

Fine. I’ll swap those names for Niels Hogel. Highly trained professional tasked with caring for patients but instead killed many. An example as requested.

 

[BuzzC]

Fine. I’ll swap those names for Niels Hogel. Highly trained professional tasked with caring for patients but instead killed many. An example as requested.

One of the most prolific serial killers in the history of the U.K. was a GP

 

[BabaVanga]

One of the most prolific serial killers in the history of the U.K. was a GP

Yes Mr Shipman. Just wanted to mention another nurse who was highly qualified but of course so was the serial killer Shipman. Horrible people live amongst us pretending to be caring :/

 

[Sweeper2000]

We don’t see anything to suggest munchausen and it would be there. Nearly all of the other cases involve an “Angel of death” dealing with the elderly. One exception being the baby farmer from the Victorian era and she Did that for financial gain which isn’t an element in this case. My point was that the deliberate targeting of of babies for reasons of “emotional sensation” is not a documented phenomenon. It would be a first. It’s also the case that in “nurse killers” people always seem to pick up on unusual behaviour which isn’t the case with LL.

 

[BuzzC]

We don’t see anything to suggest munchausen and it would be there. Nearly all of the other cases involve an “Angel of death” dealing with the elderly. One exception being the baby farmer from the Victorian era and she Did that for financial gain which isn’t an element in this case. My point was that the deliberate targeting of of babies for reasons of “emotional sensation” is not a documented phenomenon. It would be a first. It’s also the case that in “nurse killers” people always seem to pick up on unusual behaviour which isn’t the case with LL.

There are parents who’s recollection of strange behaviour has been brought into (agreed) evidence.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yep mr shipman but he still went for the elderly. It has been suggested his motive was in some cases financial and other's were speculated to be done in order to reduce perceived burden on the state. That last motive fits with his “arrogance towards anyone he deemed intellectually inferior” or weak. He was also able to elude suspicion due to him more or less being the sole caregiver to his patients. If he had of worked in a busy hospital surrounded by other professionals he would have been noticed.

There are parents who’s recollection of strange behaviour has been brought into (agreed) evidence.

Is true but has anyone but the patients families said anything of the sort? And in regards to us do we believe those seemingly rare incidences are representative of unusual behaviour? Nobody at all seemingly. The prosecution would need to look for that kind of thing to build a strong case and if that is all they got, which is nothing even approaching outright and definite oddness then it’s not looking likely. I could mention the note as giving strong indication to who LL is as it’s very personal but even with that we get nothing conclusive.