UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[BuzzC]

Yep mr shipman but he still went for the elderly. It has been suggested his motive was in some cases financial and other's were speculated to be done in order to reduce perceived burden on the state. That last motive fits with his “arrogance towards anyone he deemed intellectually inferior” or weak. He was also able to elude suspicion due to him more or less being the sole caregiver to his patients. If he had of worked in a busy hospital surrounded by other professionals he would have been noticed.



Is true but has anyone but the patients families said anything of the sort? And in regards to us do we believe those seemingly rare incidences are representative of unusual behaviour? Nobody at all seemingly. The prosecution would need to look for that kind of thing to build a strong case and if that is all they got, which is nothing even approaching outright and definite oddness then it’s not looking likely. I could mention the note as giving strong indication to who LL is as it’s very personal but even with that we get nothing conclusive.

A female nurse in the U.K. has been convicted of murdering babies in a U.K. hospital previously. I’m not allowed to name names, but most people - I assume - know who it is. Initials are BA.

There is an example of nurses harming babies. It has happened before.

There are also well documented cases of serial killers/murderers being described as charming, pleasant - most positive characteristics that you can think of. It’s often a way they gain the trust of their victims. It’s not unheard of.

There’s a number of assertions there which are your opinion regards LL’s personality. I am far less confident given what we know.

 

[arrogantcat]

One of the most prolific serial killers in the history of the U.K. was a GP

Shipman had financial motivations though, correct? There’s no suggestion of anything like that here as far as we know, so quite different if so.

There are of course other cases of medical murder, and all seem to have been able to ascribe a motive in due course. If LL is guilty then I hope the same will be true here.

 

[BuzzC]

Shipman had financial motivations though, correct? There’s no suggestion of anything like that here as far as we know, so quite different.

Agreed. It was in reference to the question over whether someone who trained for a long time to enter a caring profession could cause deliberate harm.

I’ve since mentioned a nurse who has been convicted of murdering babies though.

 

[Sweeper2000]

BA was suspected munchausen by proxy and the intention I believe is not to kill it is “to elicit attention through the deliberate/purposeful creation of illness in another”. It’s attention seeking which is specific to munchausen but not a part of psychopathy. We don’t as of yet see anything to suggest it was a part of this case indeed the opposite. She would have been noticed if it was and it’s not part of the prosecution’s evidence. I am going with what the prosecutions are giving as evidence and that being the testimony of parents which I don’t feel great about discounting but have to suggest isn’t based on consistent observations, they didn’t spend allot of time with her whereas her work colleagues never noticed anything apparently and they would because they are around her so much. If anyone can provide a strong example of odd behaviour that isn’t borderline or difficult to think of one way or another then I will reconsider, but currently her character seems to be normal.

We don’t see excessive attention seeking or situational selfishness and we don’t see any callousness or indifference. The former being indicative of munchausen and the latter being indicative of psychopathy. Do we see anything at all that would give us a lead?

 

[BuzzC]

BA was suspected munchausen by proxy and the intention I believe is not to kill it is “to elicit attention through the deliberate/purposeful creation of illness in another”. It’s attention seeking which is specific to munchausen but not a part of psychopathy. We don’t as of yet see anything to suggest it was a part of this case indeed the opposite. She would have been noticed if it was and it’s not part of the prosecution’s evidence. I am going with what the prosecutions are giving as evidence and that being the testimony of parents which I don’t feel great about discounting but have to suggest isn’t based on consistent observations, they didn’t spend allot of time with her whereas her work colleagues never noticed anything apparently and they would because they are around her so much. If anyone can provide a strong example of odd behaviour that isn’t borderline or difficult to think of one way or another then I will reconsider, but currently her character seems to be normal.

We don’t see excessive attention seeking or situational selfishness and we don’t see any callousness or indifference. The former being indicative of munchausen and the latter being indicative of psychopathy. Do we see anything at all that would give us a lead?

We have no idea of the alleged motive because one has not been presented yet.

Her ‘personality’, which there has been next to nothing on, is of so little relevance when you consider the long history of “normal” serial killers in the public domain. But don’t forget, people who worked beside her were suspicious enough of her to raise it with superiors. That is in evidence.

 

[BabaVanga]

BA was suspected munchausen by proxy and the intention I believe is not to kill it is “to elicit attention through the deliberate/purposeful creation of illness in another”. It’s attention seeking which is specific to munchausen but not a part of psychopathy. We don’t as of yet see anything to suggest it was a part of this case indeed the opposite. She would have been noticed if it was and it’s not part of the prosecution’s evidence. I am going with what the prosecutions are giving as evidence and that being the testimony of parents which I don’t feel great about discounting but have to suggest isn’t based on consistent observations, they didn’t spend allot of time with her whereas her work colleagues never noticed anything apparently and they would because they are around her so much. If anyone can provide a strong example of odd behaviour that isn’t borderline or difficult to think of one way or another then I will reconsider, but currently her character seems to be normal.

We don’t see excessive attention seeking or situational selfishness and we don’t see any callousness or indifference. The former being indicative of munchausen and the latter being indicative of psychopathy. Do we see anything at all that would give us a lead?

I’m certain during the rest of the 6 month trial more will be revealed. Probably including callousness and possibly a form of munchausen. We shall just have to wait and see.

 

[Sweeper2000]

We have no idea of the alleged motive because one has not been presented yet.

Her ‘personality’, which there has been next to nothing on, is of so little relevance when you consider the long history of “normal” serial killers in the public domain. But don’t forget, people who worked beside her were suspicious enough of her to raise it with superiors. That is in evidence.

Who raised suspicions? can you give me a pointer to source please? If these issues were raised after these “unexpected collapses and deaths” then it is probably as quoted by the defence “bias confirmation”. It might be the Tv doctor and his only thing which isn’t character based is her being present.

 

[BuzzC]

Who raised suspicions? can you give me a pointer to source please? If these issues were raised after these “unexpected collapses and deaths” then it is probably as quoted by the defence “bias confirmation”. It might be the Tv doctor and his only thing which isn’t character based is her being present.

I’m not able to search back at the moment, but whichever doctor or consultant claimed that they were told “not to make a fuss” about it.

 

[JosieJo]

I've no idea if LL is guilty or not or have any idea what her personality is or was like ...none of us do as yet ..not from court anyway.

But if I had to try and imagine what type of person did this ..if anyone did.

Born to older parents, only child ...slightly old fashioned and socially awkward...not in the popular crowd at school.

Went into nursing and did well ..enjoyed the initial limelight and drama of it all and happy to be the face of the hospital etc.

Over a period of time got used to their role ...started to see others come into the team , young nurses popular with Dr's..popular with managers , boyfriends, marriage.
This nurse still single...constantly doing extra shifts but always the bridesmaid never the bride in all aspects of life.

Somehow???? Why ?? decided to make her own drama ...maybe to try and prove her skills .. maybe just to bring Dr's and drama onto her shifts ? Maybe just sick of the Unfairness?

Complete imagination on my behalf...call it my "post it note" ramblings

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m not able to search back at the moment, but whichever doctor or consultant claimed that they were told “not to make a fuss” about it.

Yeh was the tv doctor, he raised concerns after the events. I’m looking for anything before 2015 and is consistent across time and isn’t isolated.

 

[arrogantcat]

Some interesting suggestions from a professor of forensic psychology on motivations for killer nurses in this BBC article: (Not about this case and does not mention LL; sharing only for background info as relevant to current discussion)

“Nurses, on the other hand, often feel put upon and undervalued," she added.
"Their killing sprees appear to have other motives, such as gaining attention, finding a small realm of power in an otherwise powerless world, assuaging depression, paying back an unfair system, and acting out to relieve frustration or workload."”

Personally, I do get the sense that the Prosecution are aiming towards a presentation fitting with Factitious Disorder (Prev. Munchausen’s by Proxy), perhaps not in name, or with a formal diagnosis, but in general patterns and implication.

If she was indeed ‘doing it for attention’ then it seems so far in the cases heard, the payoff has been pretty small. Will be interesting to see if this escalates over the progression of the trial, which would make it more convincing.

It doesn’t seem she was short on understanding friends or affection from her parents (mine wouldn’t say they were proud of me even if I won gold in the Olympics Lol).

 

[JosieJo]

Court finished early today here is the Standards daily round up

Lucy Letby trial: Accused nurse ‘stood by baby’s incubator after heart rate and oxygen alert’

A NURSE has described seeing Countess of Chester neonatal unit colleague Lucy Letby standing by the incubator of a premature baby after its heart…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[BabaVanga]

I've no idea if LL is guilty or not or have any idea what her personality is or was like ...none of us do as yet ..not from court anyway.

But if I had to try and imagine what type of person did this ..if anyone did.

Born to older parents, only child ...slightly old fashioned and socially awkward...not in the popular crowd at school.

Went into nursing and did well ..enjoyed the initial limelight and drama of it all and happy to be the face of the hospital etc.

Over a period of time got used to their role ...started to see others come into the team , young nurses popular with Dr's..popular with managers , boyfriends, marriage.
This nurse still single...constantly doing extra shifts but always the bridesmaid never the bride in all aspects of life.

Somehow???? Why ?? decided to make her own drama ...maybe to try and prove her skills .. maybe just to bring Dr's and drama onto her shifts ? Maybe just sick of the Unfairness?

Complete imagination on my behalf...call it my "post it note" ramblings

This is very interesting and well said. Thanks for sharing

 

[JosieJo]

From reading today's evidence on baby C .. So Nurse Taylor and Nurse Ellis were looking after the 3 babies in room 1 from what I can gather ????..why was LL even in the room standing by the incubator?

 

[BuzzC]

Yeh was the tv doctor, he raised concerns after the events. I’m looking for anything before 2015 and is consistent across time and isn’t isolated.

What was the timeline? I seem to remember these comments were made at an inquest for one of the dead babies, but I’m not sure if LL had been arrested or charged at this point.

 

[BuzzC]

Some interesting suggestions from a professor of forensic psychology on motivations for killer nurses in this BBC article: (Not about this case and does not mention LL; sharing only for background info as relevant to current discussion)

“Nurses, on the other hand, often feel put upon and undervalued," she added.
"Their killing sprees appear to have other motives, such as gaining attention, finding a small realm of power in an otherwise powerless world, assuaging depression, paying back an unfair system, and acting out to relieve frustration or workload."”

Personally, I do get the sense that the Prosecution are aiming towards a presentation fitting with Factitious Disorder (Prev. Munchausen’s by Proxy), perhaps not in name, or with a formal diagnosis, but in general patterns and implication.

If she was indeed ‘doing it for attention’ then it seems so far in the cases heard, the payoff has been pretty small. Will be interesting to see if this escalates over the progression of the trial, which would make it more convincing.

It doesn’t seem she was short on understanding friends or affection from her parents (mine wouldn’t say they were proud of me even if I won gold in the Olympics Lol).

This is very interesting and thought provoking. Most people struggle to understand how anyone could harm an innocent, so seeing some professional, unbiased, opinion on it is certainly enlightening.

 

[Stumpyaura]

Few more details of the day in here. Also information about a weekly podcast of the trial coming out from The Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11349579/amp/Lucy-Letby-trial-hears-TV-doctor-colleagues-raised-concerns-neonatal-nurse.html

 

[Sweeper2000]

What was the timeline? I seem to remember these comments were made at an inquest for one of the dead babies, but I’m not sure if LL had been arrested or charged at this point.

Lucy Letby trial hears how doctor raised concerns but was told 'not to make a fuss'

Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatrician at the Countess of Chester Hospital, also said the unusual skin discolouration of Letby's first alleged victim, a baby boy known as Child A, "didn't fit with anything I had ever seen".

news.sky.com

Here is an article about the relevant events. Yes the suspicions were raised during Baby A inquest which was in October 2016 which fitting with the timeline is when things got fishy. No I don’t believe Lucy had been arrested at this point. The doctor also stated “no hard evidence” and noted nothing about LL character. In that article it is also stated by the nurse who knew LL since university that she was “professional” in conduct. Very strong statement from someone who knew her well for a long time. Is in my mind strong evidence.

Some interesting suggestions from a professor of forensic psychology on motivations for killer nurses in this BBC article: (Not about this case and does not mention LL; sharing only for background info as relevant to current discussion)

“Nurses, on the other hand, often feel put upon and undervalued," she added.
"Their killing sprees appear to have other motives, such as gaining attention, finding a small realm of power in an otherwise powerless world, assuaging depression, paying back an unfair system, and acting out to relieve frustration or workload."”

Personally, I do get the sense that the Prosecution are aiming towards a presentation fitting with Factitious Disorder (Prev. Munchausen’s by Proxy), perhaps not in name, or with a formal diagnosis, but in general patterns and implication.

If she was indeed ‘doing it for attention’ then it seems so far in the cases heard, the payoff has been pretty small. Will be interesting to see if this escalates over the progression of the trial, which would make it more convincing.

It doesn’t seem she was short on understanding friends or affection from her parents (mine wouldn’t say they were proud of me even if I won gold in the Olympics Lol).

Yip you are correct, there doesn’t seem to be much if any fishing for attention as of yet certainly nothing out of the usual. If that was the motive there’s nothing to suggest it. I agree that does seem to be the prosecution’s position currently without evidential substance. I’m sure the prosecution would have said something at the start but can’t say for sure about LL being a devil or such and such. Does that mean they don’t have much? do we think?

 

[gc105]

From The Standard live trial updates:

2:10pm

Mr Myers: "It was a very busy shift, wasn't it?"
Ms Taylor: "Yes."
Mr Myers says Ms Taylor was not sure she was in the room when the collapse happened.
"The only person you remember [being there] was Lucy?"
Ms Taylor agrees. She adds she assumed Sophie Ellis was also present.
Mr Myers: "It is from your account, Lucy is there, no-one else is present, maybe Sophie?"
Ms Taylor: "Yes."
Mr Myers: "I am going to suggest, you were in the nursery when this happened?"
Ms Taylor says she doesn't believe so.
Mr Myers: "That it was Sophie Ellis who called you?"
Ms Taylor: "It might have been."
Mr Myers: "That Lucy Letby was not there at the start of this?"
Ms Taylor: "I disagree."


2:14pm

Mr Myers says Ms Taylor, in her police statement, said she was "pretty sure" she was "already in nursery room 1", feeding another baby, at the time of the collapse.
Ms Taylor says her memory has deteriorated since then, and what is in her police statement is correct.
Mr Myers says Ms Taylor's police statement said she was called over by Sophie Ellis, and there is no mention of Lucy Letby.
Ms Taylor: "No, but she was there."


2:19pm

Ms Taylor said she read her police statement for the first time this morning and had not memorised everything from it.
She added: "I didn't say Lucy Letby called me over.
"I likely wasn't asked [by police] if Lucy Letby was there.
"Now I have been shown that [statement], I can remember Sophie called me over.
"Years have passed since this has happened."
Ms Taylor said she has not changed her mind about who was present there.
"I tell you now, when I approached the incubator, she [Lucy Letby] was there on the other side."
She added she remembered how "cool and calm" Lucy Letby looked at the time.
Ms Taylor said she hadn't said Lucy Letby was not in room 1 at the time of the collapse.


2:20pm

Ms Taylor tells the court said she didn't think it was necessary at the time to include that information [of Letby's presence] to police.

****

I find this witness testimony from LLs nursing colleague very interesting. Ms Taylor has stood in court today and placed her colleague LL in the room at the time of the incident. By her own admission - she has said she can’t recall who called her over & has said given it’s a number of years her memory of the events has deteriorated. However she is absolutely in her cross-examination today (under oath remember) that LL WAS at the incubator when she arrived.

I find it rather interesting that her colleagues are giving witness accounts that are seemingly helping the prosecution case (ie Ms Taylor saying in court today that LL was 100% at the incubator of Child C at the time of collapse, when possibly not mentioned in initial police onterview). Suggests to me some of her colleagues may also have their suspicions regarding LL.

 

[notsure]

Looks like Mr Myers was trying to create doubt about the reliability of Ms Taylor's evidence. It would certainly put doubts in my mind if I were on the jury.