UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

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  • #601
Interesting point about the lethality.

These less lethal attacks (apart from baby o like you have spotted) could be a way of tipping these fragile babies over the edge.

Perhaps she was experimenting, and this is a horrible thought (and speculation), did she enjoy the suffering that they would barely survive and then she would go back again the next time she was alone with them. Like an enjoyment of the pain, torture you could say.

I was thinking the same kind of thing. All fatal methods aside from O and P cluster around the beginning and then following alleged attempts are more poisoning and sabotage. Can the excess lethality in baby O be attributed to frustration at prior failed attempts? It’s also notable that embolism is the most lethal method and doesn’t feature in non lethal cases but the fatalities after the failed alleged attempts involved embolisms. Did she go back to embolisms especially with Baby O after the failed attempts with the less lethal means?
 
  • #602
If I’m reading this correctly (always a challenge with the Daily Fail), it sounds like Baby C held on for an unusually long time after resus had ended.

“'It was five hours (later) when finally no heart beat was heard and there were no further gasping responses'.”

Link


Does this potentially make the actions of the nurse (again cited here as someone the dad “thought might have been LL”) a little more understandable? A nurse popped in with the basket after the usual amount of time had passed, not expecting the child to still be showing signs of life.

A small detail overall, but I think it shows how easy it *could be* to twist something perfectly reasonable and explicable into a damning encounter. Especially given it might not even have been the accused!

Not saying that is or isn’t what happened here of course. With the dribs and drabs we’re getting through tweets and tabloids, it’s hard to believe any of us are getting a truly clear picture.
 
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  • #603
ACK! I made a mistake in my reply to Sweeper2000, as far as the ductus arteriosus goes. While I was typing, I was thinking of the coronary arteries and brachiocephalic artery (goes to brain) as coming off the aorta after the ductus arteriosus. But they are PRE-ductal (and I should have remembered this ). So air should not be able to get into the coronary artery directly across the ductus arteriosus. It would only get across the usual way, through the lungs, or possibly through a Patent Foramen Ovale (a communication between right atrium and left atrium that exists before birth specifically for blood to flow across) but the PFO usually "functionally" closes after birth. It would have been more accurate to say that newborns are more susceptible due to their small size. At only 100mL/kg of blood, and 800g baby has about 80mL of blood, and as little as 4mL of air could be fatal. Sorry, Sweeper!

You really have nothing to apologise for, tbh I’m very grateful for such an in depth answer, I think everyone is. Thank you. It did clear allot of things up certainly edit. and then more questions came in there place lol.
 
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  • #604
Just been doing some research using the cases notes. In terms of any pattern in method it isn’t obvious if it’s there. If guilty apparently LL used less lethal methods more often than not and most fatalities are clustered around Baby A, early on.

Cases involving a fatality are baby A,C,D,E,I,O and P.
Notice how significant margin is clustered around Baby A. Most fatal method so far is stomach air embolism suspected in four cases (c,I,o,p) followed by vein embolism with three (a,d,e). Other suggested attempted methods are all surviving insulin (f,l), excessive feeding (g,q), sabotaging equipment, moving air tubes, unknown causes of desats and collapses (h,j,k,n). Baby G is said to be brain damaged. There are also three strong instances of a child being attacked multiple times again suggesting concerted efforts on the part of the accused (e,h,o).

Greater lethality is associated with the earlier cases suggesting if killing was the intention, the method did not change upon learning of babies surviving. There is one instance of note in terms of lethality, baby O actually received both venous embolism and stomach air embolism as well as being the baby with liver trauma and being the brother of another fatality in child p. If guilty Baby O got way more of LL than others, I wonder why?

IMO.
I wonder if the Prosectution are going to pose a theory as to victim selection. It’s interesting that she was sometimes apparently involved closely with the care of some very poorly babies while ‘attacks’ were taking place on other infants that she was not assigned to.

I know some believe this was merely to defer any indication of guilt or blame, but repeatedly trying to harm babies she’d already been seen to get involved with doesn’t really lend itself to that. Plus with nurses rotating care and shifts over the weeks, presumably she was sometimes directly assigned to these children too.

What made her (allegedly!) so determined to kill some babies and not others?
Was there any pattern at all?
 
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  • #605
I wonder if the Prosectution are going to pose a theory as to victim selection. It’s interesting that she was sometimes apparently involved closely with the care of some very poorly babies while ‘attacks’ were taking place on other infants that she was not assigned to.

I know some believe this was merely to defer any indication of guilt or blame, but repeatedly trying to harm babies she’d already been seen to get involved with doesn’t really lend itself to that. Plus with nurses rotating care and shifts over the weeks, presumably she was sometimes directly assigned to these children too.

What made her (allegedly!) so determined to kill some babies and not others?
Was there any pattern at all?

Interesting I have thought of one way. Child E was the last child in a pattern of embolisms after being told by a colleague that she thought the first three deaths A,C,D were suspicious or “odd”. Did she change method after that exchange to avoid detection?
 
  • #606
I'm working on a detailed timeline for the case, will let you all know when it's ready and post it in the timeline thread.

In the meantime I've put together a list of the alleged attempted murders and murders, with notes as to whether or not LL was the babies' designated nurse - always on the search for patterns!

8 Jun 2015 - Twin Baby A - murder charge - nightshift - designated nurse
10 Jun 2015 - Twin Baby B - attempted murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
14 Jun 2015 - Baby C - murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
22 Jun 2015 - Baby D - murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
4 Aug 2015 - Twin Baby E - murder charge - nightshift - designated nurse
5 Aug 2015 - Twin Baby F - attempted murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
7 Sep 2015 - Baby G - attempted murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
21 Sep 2015 - Baby G - 2 x attempted murder charges - dayshift - designated nurse
26 Sep 2015 - Baby H - attempted murder charge - nightshift - designated nurse
27 Sep 2015 - Baby H - attempted murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
30 Sep 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempted murder (not charged but chgd w/murder) - dayshift - designated nurse
13 Oct 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempted murder (not charged but chgd w/murder) - nightshift - not designated nurse
14 Oct 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempted murder (not charged but chgd w/murder) - (next) nightshift - designated nurse
22 Oct 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempted murder (not charged but chgd w/murder) - nightshift - not designated nurse
23 Oct 2015 - Baby I - murder charge - (same) nightshift - not designated nurse
27 Nov 2015 - Baby J - attempted murder charge - nightshift - designated nurse
17 Feb 2016 - Baby K - attempted murder charge - nightshift - designated nurse
9 Apr 2016 - Twin Baby L - attempted murder charge - dayshift - unclear who the designated nurse was
9 Apr 2016 - Twin Baby M - attempted murder charge - (same) dayshift - unclear who the designated nurse was
3 Jun 2016 - Baby N - attempted murder charge - nightshift - not designated nurse
15 Jun 2016 - Baby N - 2 x attempted murder charges - dayshift - designated nurse
23 Jun 2016 - Triplet Baby O - murder charge - dayshift - designated nurse - also supervising a student nurse
24 Jun 2016 - Triplet Baby P - murder charge - dayshift - designated nurse
25 Jun 2016 - Baby Q - attempted murder charge - dayshift - designated nurse
Also, as regards the period between Baby K (17 Feb 2016) and Babies L & M (9 Apr 2016), I noticed this early article -

"A blue forensic tent was erected this morning on the driveway of her modern three bedroomed property, which she bought in March 2016 for £178,950."

Police search home of nurse, 28, after arresting woman over murder of 8 babies
 
  • #607
  • #608
Also, as regards the period between Baby K (17 Feb 2016) and Babies L & M (9 Apr 2016), I noticed this early article -

"A blue forensic tent was erected this morning on the driveway of her modern three bedroomed property, which she bought in March 2016 for £178,950."

Police search home of nurse, 28, after arresting woman over murder of 8 babies
Interesting,. I did a further read on the same
article you mention. I know it was asked previously about whether LL had a partner and briefly discussed, it appears so by the mention of it by the neighbours (relevant or not) but I’m also interested in the timing of the holiday mentioned here and timing *when* the property was searched. Of course, it could be completely unrelated too:

“Another neighbour said: “I have seen her going in and out of the house with a man who I presumed was her partner but don’t know anything about her. I don’t know if she is a nurse or not.”

“just spent a week in Torquay on holiday with her parents.”
 
  • #609
I'm not really seeing the relevance of the matter relating to when she bought the house or what she paid for it. In fact, we don't know for sure that it was even hers. One of the neighbors mentioned something to the effect that there was a relatively high turnover of residents which could imply that she was renting.

The Torquay holiday with parents was in 2018 just before she was arrested so she'd been on suspension for a while up to that point, I think.
 
  • #610
Also, as regards the period between Baby K (17 Feb 2016) and Babies L & M (9 Apr 2016), I noticed this early article -

"A blue forensic tent was erected this morning on the driveway of her modern three bedroomed property, which she bought in March 2016 for £178,950."

Police search home of nurse, 28, after arresting woman over murder of 8 babies
I wondered about that too, very strange. I think I remember the police were digging her garden also, is that correct? I can't remember where I read that or if I just assumed that was the case because of the tent?

(EDITED because I messed up my comment, coffee not kicked in yet)
 
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  • #611
So if she moved into her house in 2016 ...does that not mean baby b's handover sheet "moved with her"
 
  • #612
So if she moved into her house in 2016 ...does that not mean baby b's handover sheet "moved with her"

Now that is interesting, are we sure this note was recovered from her property rather than her parents house? Not much to say the note/s are anything special, were they notes in a vast pile of unsorted notes? but it is interesting they moved without being discarded, suggesting they were noticed but held on to.
 
  • #613
Good morning everyone
 
  • #614
So if she moved into her house in 2016 ...does that not mean baby b's handover sheet "moved with her"
We don't know that she moved then. If she was renting the house may have just been sold to another landlord. She may have bought it from the landlord having already been living there

Even if the sheet did move with her, it depends on the circumstances. She may have forgotten she ever had it.

We simply don't know any of this.
 
  • #615
We don't know that she moved then. If she was renting the house may have just been sold to another landlord. She may have bought it from the landlord having already been living there

Even if the sheet did move with her, it depends on the circumstances. She may have forgotten she ever had it.

We simply don't know any of this.

That's correct but interesting all the same as it could decrease the possibility of it being rubbish that was hiding in a corner unnoticed
 
  • #616
I wonder if the Prosectution are going to pose a theory as to victim selection. It’s interesting that she was sometimes apparently involved closely with the care of some very poorly babies while ‘attacks’ were taking place on other infants that she was not assigned to.

I know some believe this was merely to defer any indication of guilt or blame, but repeatedly trying to harm babies she’d already been seen to get involved with doesn’t really lend itself to that. Plus with nurses rotating care and shifts over the weeks, presumably she was sometimes directly assigned to these children too.

What made her (allegedly!) so determined to kill some babies and not others?
Was there any pattern at all?
<modsnip - discussion of unrelated case>

I have no opinion on this particular case. I have no inside information. I follow it because I am a scientist who has worked on the statistical aspects of similar past cases from around the world. I have studied cases where there is no serious doubt of guilt, cases where there is no serious doubt of innocence, and cases where it is still really open whether any crimes were committed or not (and if so, by whom).
 
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  • #617
Now that is interesting, are we sure this note was recovered from her property rather than her parents house? Not much to say the note/s are anything special, were they notes in a vast pile of unsorted notes? but it is interesting they moved without being discarded, suggesting they were noticed but held on to.
In November 2020, Letby was asked by police about a handover sheet relating to Child B found at her home address in a search.

The sheet showed she had been the designated nurse for two babies in a different room that night.
 
  • #618
That's correct but interesting all the same as it could decrease the possibility of it being rubbish that was hiding in a corner unnoticed
Possibly but it could have been in a coat pocket or stuffed away in a bedside drawer, for instance? Last time I helped someone move we just carried bedside cabinets out without emptying them.
 
  • #619
Then there is another pattern, and that is that from the 17 babies she is charged with, only one baby at a time was unexpectedly collapsing. None of the charges overlap in terms of the cases with multiple collapses.

That's an interesting thought
Another possible pattern is that babies from the same families were often attacked. Letby seemed to be curious about their parents, looking them up on FB shortly after the attacks, many times more than once.

Now that we know just how involved she was and how traumatic each incident was for everyone caring for those babies, it's very hard to believe LL had no recollection of being in the room on some occasions and searching the parent's FB pages, even on Christmas and right after the the attack on Baby E, when the child's mother walked in while LL was allegedly attacking him.

Then, less than 24 after child E's death, an attack was made on his twin, child E.

Why siblings? Why take both children from their parents?
 
  • #620
If I’m reading this correctly (always a challenge with the Daily Fail), it sounds like Baby C held on for an unusually long time after resus had ended.

“'It was five hours (later) when finally no heart beat was heard and there were no further gasping responses'.”

Link


Does this potentially make the actions of the nurse (again cited here as someone the dad “thought might have been LL”) a little more understandable? A nurse popped in with the basket after the usual amount of time had passed, not expecting the child to still be showing signs of life.

A small detail overall, but I think it shows how easy it *could be* to twist something perfectly reasonable and explicable into a damning encounter. Especially given it might not even have been the accused!

Not saying that is or isn’t what happened here of course. With the dribs and drabs we’re getting through tweets and tabloids, it’s hard to believe any of us are getting a truly clear picture.
I'm wondering why Letby assumed the baby was already dead. She had been in and out of that room several times and had to be reminded several times not to go in the Family room. Why keep going in there?

Wasn't this after she texted her colleague that she wanted to care for child C, because she thought it would be healing to see a live baby where a dead one had been?
 
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