And let’s not forget the reason for the mothers 9pm visit, to drop off expressed breast milk for the 9pm feed. That in itself, backed up with the phone call immediately on returning to the postnatal ward, to me suggests the mother is correct in her recollections.
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #6
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I am horrified by the defense's line of questioning towards the mother. It's pointless and cruel and will do nothing to convince the jury that LL is not guilty.
Eg, instead of doubting the alleged mother of a murdered baby that her baby's screams were "horrendous", would it not have been better to ask if perceptions of baby's cries can be subjective? He could do his duty and give the jury something to consider without the needless insensitivity, that must surely look unpleasant to the jurors.
Also, I'm devastated for the parents to read that they were convinced and pressured by a doctor to not have an autopsy. I really think this surge of death could have been stopped sooner, because Baby E would have had obvious signs of trauma. It would also have made the trial easier.
Eg, instead of doubting the alleged mother of a murdered baby that her baby's screams were "horrendous", would it not have been better to ask if perceptions of baby's cries can be subjective? He could do his duty and give the jury something to consider without the needless insensitivity, that must surely look unpleasant to the jurors.
Also, I'm devastated for the parents to read that they were convinced and pressured by a doctor to not have an autopsy. I really think this surge of death could have been stopped sooner, because Baby E would have had obvious signs of trauma. It would also have made the trial easier.
LL dealt with many babies all the time, and often says she can't recall something specific - OK, fine. But then why should anyone believe what she says over the mothers of the babies, who had at most 3 babies to concentrate on and care for?
The defence is doing a good job and are entitled to push hard. Remember LL may be not guilty, and if so it may be the NHS putting the families through this ordeal.
Yeah, and she didn't have her persistent amnesia when recalling to police her (alleged) forged timeline for the night of Baby E's death. She could remember perfectly well that the mother was supposed to have visited at the start of the shift at 7:30-8:00, and again at 10pm.
Why on earth would anyone remember such specific times? It's interesting that these are the specific times that she is accused of fabricating.
Do you really think this will sway the jury? If anything, it will sway them in the guilty direction. It just seems appalling.
It's his job to ask these questions. Horrendous is a subjective description. The crying did not attract any other staff, no-one came running. What is horrendous to you may not be horrendous to anyone else.
LadyEdgeworth
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12:43pm
A 'Kangaroo care record' is presented to the court, documenting the times when the parents were able to have physical contact for Child E, and how long it lasted, and how well it was tolerated.
A nurse's record notes for that day that mum 'had long periods of skin to skin [contact]'.
12:48pm
The note records, at 10.44am, Child E was 'self ventilating in 25% ambient oxygen. No signs of respiratory distress...pink and well perfused....handles well. Caffeine given as prescribed.'
A doctor's note at 11.45am on August 3 records Child E has 'suspected sepsis', 'hyperglycaemia', and was 'off lights' for jaundice, with 'good gases'.
Child E was 'tolerating well' expressed breast milk.
The baby boy was 'not examined at present as having cuddles with mum'.
The plan was to 'examine later' and increase feeds.
Aspirates were 'ok'.
12:50pm
Dr Emily Thomas made clinical notes at 2.10pm on August 3, noting: 'examination of [Child E] as having skin to skin on [ward round earlier that day]. Good tone and movements, handling appropriately throughout the day.'
12:56pm
Child E was placed on a small dose of insulin, given via infusion.
12:58pm
A nursing note at 5.24pm said Child E was 'self ventilating in air', blood gas reading was 'satisfactory', and feeds were increased.
1:00pm
At 7.30pm, Dr Emily Thomas made clinical notes, with a CRP reading less than 1, Child E was on 23% oxygen, and antibiotics were 'likely to stop at 36 hours as improving'.
A series of other observations are made
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A 'Kangaroo care record' is presented to the court, documenting the times when the parents were able to have physical contact for Child E, and how long it lasted, and how well it was tolerated.
A nurse's record notes for that day that mum 'had long periods of skin to skin [contact]'.
12:48pm
The note records, at 10.44am, Child E was 'self ventilating in 25% ambient oxygen. No signs of respiratory distress...pink and well perfused....handles well. Caffeine given as prescribed.'
A doctor's note at 11.45am on August 3 records Child E has 'suspected sepsis', 'hyperglycaemia', and was 'off lights' for jaundice, with 'good gases'.
Child E was 'tolerating well' expressed breast milk.
The baby boy was 'not examined at present as having cuddles with mum'.
The plan was to 'examine later' and increase feeds.
Aspirates were 'ok'.
12:50pm
Dr Emily Thomas made clinical notes at 2.10pm on August 3, noting: 'examination of [Child E] as having skin to skin on [ward round earlier that day]. Good tone and movements, handling appropriately throughout the day.'
12:56pm
Child E was placed on a small dose of insulin, given via infusion.
12:58pm
A nursing note at 5.24pm said Child E was 'self ventilating in air', blood gas reading was 'satisfactory', and feeds were increased.
1:00pm
At 7.30pm, Dr Emily Thomas made clinical notes, with a CRP reading less than 1, Child E was on 23% oxygen, and antibiotics were 'likely to stop at 36 hours as improving'.
A series of other observations are made
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, November 14
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…
I can only suppose the prosecution are putting forward the suggestion the baby was screaming because it has just been hurt by LL and the defence are trying to suggest the baby was just screaming, not because of pain or having just been hurt. I’m a little bit surprised if this is the case that Myers didn’t try to suggest to the mother that her recollection of blood was either post death /pre bath or fabricated once the events were explained to her (with baby having had blood loss)
I suppose when you really consider it, it’s whether you believe the mother (and therefore LL purposely didn’t note the blood) or you believe the notes (and the mother saw no blood)
The registrar having no recollection of the 9pm feed being omitted is interesting because it certainly supports one theory over the other.
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Is it really his job to be querying wether the baby’s dying screams were “really that bad” or not?
Let’s be clear though, the baby died several hours after this incident with acute blood loss which has come from somewhere. I’d argue that acute internal blood loss is probably very painful. Questioning whether the baby’s screaming was actually horrendous or not is just not relevant. The mother made it clear is was a cry she was alarmed by.
And as I actually said, if he'd said to the mother "do you agree that perceptions of babies' cries can be subjective?" he would have given the jury cause to doubt, without cruelty towards a bereaved mother who allegedly witnessed her own baby's murder.
There is no one more equipped to interpret the cries of a baby than his own mother. Her perception should be taken as of the highest integrity.
As horrible as it is the defence do have to question these bereaved relatives.
Regarding the screaming baby .Yes screaming is subjective but the baby was what? 5 days old? and the mom had certainly not seen her baby that distressed before. She also states she tried soothing techniques which did not work.
Then you have LL not even being by the cot when a child is screaming and has blood around its mouth...which is at best odd ..as if she was standing at the work station she hadn't just moved quickly away to get something she needed for the baby.
Regarding no other staff hearing/ responding..we do not know for sure yet if anyone did notice but saw LL ...a senior nurse..was already in attendance.
Regarding the screaming baby .Yes screaming is subjective but the baby was what? 5 days old? and the mom had certainly not seen her baby that distressed before. She also states she tried soothing techniques which did not work.
Then you have LL not even being by the cot when a child is screaming and has blood around its mouth...which is at best odd ..as if she was standing at the work station she hadn't just moved quickly away to get something she needed for the baby.
Regarding no other staff hearing/ responding..we do not know for sure yet if anyone did notice but saw LL ...a senior nurse..was already in attendance.
LL's notes: She was updated by Reg xxxxx
"a meeting that neither the registrar or the mother remember".
LL's notes: SHO [Senior House Officer] informed, to omit feed."
"The SHO said he had no recollection of giving advice to omit the 9pm feed."
The prosecution say the nursing notes made are false
From prosecution opening statement Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders
"a meeting that neither the registrar or the mother remember".
LL's notes: SHO [Senior House Officer] informed, to omit feed."
"The SHO said he had no recollection of giving advice to omit the 9pm feed."
The prosecution say the nursing notes made are false
From prosecution opening statement Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders
There needs to be a sensitivity advisor to prevent victims from being treated like this. It's possible to question without being needlessly cruel.
Barristers could discuss their intentions for cross examinations with the sensitivity advisor to come up with the best way of asking.
Barristers could discuss their intentions for cross examinations with the sensitivity advisor to come up with the best way of asking.
I am not verified as an expert so please take these comments as an opinion
I've only ever worked with adult NG tubes and presumably neonates are much more complex.
But imo damage by NGT is rare and if did occur would mostly occur during its insertion...not once in position where it would stay.
When aspirating yes it's from the end of the tube which is usually not near the mouth
This is interesting, thank you. And confirms what I thought, that the NG explanation given by LL was false. I assume Dr Evans and Dr Bohin will be asked to confirm similar questions to those I've asked. Thanks Josie
I think there is much at stake, with this particular allegation, hence the KC's rigorous cross-examination. I hope she had been prepared for it, in fact I'm sure she already knew that LL denied everything the mother claims happened. He really did have to accuse her of exaggerating and being wrong/mistaken, as that is LL's case, and I'm not sure there is a nice or seemingly respectful way of doing that.
His approach came with the inevitable pitfall of looking foolish when the father confirmed the nature of the first call (IMO), but I think LL would have grounds for complaint if he didn't present her case as one of complete denial of these allegations.
His approach came with the inevitable pitfall of looking foolish when the father confirmed the nature of the first call (IMO), but I think LL would have grounds for complaint if he didn't present her case as one of complete denial of these allegations.
It's not Child E, but Child N also had bleeding in the throat and he had mild haemophilia. In that case the prosecution sought the opinion of Professor Sally Kinsey (professor of paediatric haematology) who "ruled out heavy-handed intubation as a cause." Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders
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