UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Tortoise]

It's not looking good for live updates today.

 

[Tortoise]

Professor Peter Hindmarsh — or The Prof as his small patients call him — is a consultant in paediatric endocrinology and diabetes at University College London Hospitals and Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children.

Britain’s most inspiring health worker

 

[Tortoise]

At least we should get something later from the PA media journalist.

What a poor show this is for such a huge trial, and one of the more controversial cases of the 17.

 

[Tortoise]

I think one of the biggest things to emerge from baby E's case was that no other nurse was with him before his collapse. In fact the doctor who was preparing for the elective intubation at the time E collapsed (before it then became an emergency intubation) testified that between 10.10pm and the collapse at 11.40pm he had specifically instructed LL to keep E under close observation while he was at various points discussing a plan of action with the consultant, organising an x-ray, equipment for the intubation and medications.

The other thing that really strikes me as inexplicable is that during E's first crash and resuscitation LL co-signed for medication for a baby in room 4. It seems she must have been outside the room at that point, and I can't imagine why she would allow herself to be interrupted even for a moment, during such an urgent situation.

 

[sandtimer]

Juror ill so court not sitting

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MerseyHack

Juror ill so court not sitting

 

[Legal]

Juror ill so court not sitting

Neither this case nor Mahek Bukhari are sitting today. And England are playing their first world cup game ...

 

[MissMarbles]

Neither this case nor Mahek Bukhari are sitting today. And England are playing their first world cup game ..

You beat me to it! Maybe the juror will feel better after about 3pm

 

[katydid23]

I really hope that some of these jurors have a medical or scientific background. If none do, it might get confusing to understand all of the intricacies.

 

[Tortoise]

Just looking at the trial calendar provision of 6 months, I don't see how the defence can be expecting to put on a case, beyond examining the prosecution witnesses and experts.

17 babies, taking about one week per baby - 17 weeks
4 days in opening speeches
3 days in legal argument at the beginning
my guess is 2 weeks each for the prosecution and the defence to go through each case for the jury - 4 weeks
about another 2 weeks for the judge to sum up all the evidence and instruct the jury
that's 6 months taken up, without jury deliberations.

 

[Tortoise]

I really hope that some of these jurors have a medical or scientific background. If none do, it might get confusing to understand all of the intricacies.

I think the legal teams and the judge will be well aware that this evidence needs to be put in terms that will be understood by lay-people.

 

[cuecard]

Apparently the Daily Mail podcasts on this trial are far more detailed, and people who’ve listened to them (I haven’t) have said the prosecution’s case sounds stronger in the podcasts. They are doing one podcast for each baby, and are a bit behind time and up to Baby D. Has anyone on here listened to them yet?

I haven't listened to any podcasts on this case but I have to admit I do feel like the prosecution's case is stronger from what we have heard/read so far so that doesn't surprise me too much. JMO.

 

[JosieJo]

I think one of the biggest things to emerge from baby E's case was that no other nurse was with him before his collapse. In fact the doctor who was preparing for the elective intubation at the time E collapsed (before it then became an emergency intubation) testified that between 10.10pm and the collapse at 11.40pm he had specifically instructed LL to keep E under close observation while he was at various points discussing a plan of action with the consultant, organising an x-ray, equipment for the intubation and medications.

The other thing that really strikes me as inexplicable is that during E's first crash and resuscitation LL co-signed for medication for a baby in room 4. It seems she must have been outside the room at that point, and I can't imagine why she would allow herself to be interrupted even for a moment, during such an urgent situation.

I agree
One of the biggest things for me also is why was LL standing away from the incubator when the baby was crying so badly and had blood around the mouth.

Also LL did not deny it was blood to the mum when she asked

Then she recorded the 9pm aspirates as bile and put the blood back approx an hour and delayed calling a Dr

I cant think of any innocent explanation for this

 

[ColourPurple]

Prosecution opening speech -

Medical experts Dr Dewi Evans and Dr Sandie Bohin said the hormone levels were consistent with insulin being put into the TPN bag prior to Child F's hypoglycaemic episode.
"You know who was in the room, and you know who hung up the bag," Mr Johnson told the jury.

Professor Peter Hindmarsh said the insulin "had to have gone in through the TPN bag" as the the hypoglycaemia "persisted for such a long time" despite five injections of 10% dextrose.

Professor Hindmarsh said the following possibilities happened.
That the same bag was transferred over the line, that the replacement stock bag was contaminated, or that some part of the 'giving set' was contaminated by insulin from the first TPN bag which had bound to the plastic, and therefore continued to flow through the hardware even after a non-contaminated bag was attached.
"There can be no doubt that somebody contaminated that original bag with insulin. Because of that...the problem continued through the day."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

Thanks for that, so they think at the very least the original TPN bag had insulin put into it (and the replacement bag if there was one) and LL has admitted to giving baby F glucose injections on that shift.

So my theory that she could have been counteracting the effect of the insulin in the bag by giving the glucose injections while she was on shift, (and not making anybody aware) could be right. Then once she goes off shift there would be nothing to counteract the effect of the insulin and his blood sugar would drop and it would look like it only started after she left. Although if done to hide the fact that his blood sugar was dropping due to insulin in the TPN bag why admit later to having given him glucose injections?

 

[mart321]

Juror ill so court not sitting

Definitely ill. Nothing to do with the England game.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks for that, so they think at the very least the original TPN bag had insulin put into it (and the replacement bag if there was one) and LL has admitted to giving baby F glucose injections on that shift.

So my theory that she could have been counteracting the effect of the insulin in the bag by giving the glucose injections while she was on shift, (and not making anybody aware) could be right. Then once she goes off shift there would be nothing to counteract the effect of the insulin and his blood sugar would drop and it would look like it only started after she left. Although if done to hide the fact that his blood sugar was dropping due to insulin in the TPN bag why admit later to having given him glucose injections?

It might not have been to hide it. Perhaps she had signed the nursing chart for glucose injections and couldn't deny it, although we haven't heard this evidence yet.

 

[JosieJo]

Thanks for that, so they think at the very least the original TPN bag had insulin put into it (and the replacement bag if there was one) and LL has admitted to giving baby F glucose injections on that shift.

So my theory that she could have been counteracting the effect of the insulin in the bag by giving the glucose injections while she was on shift, (and not making anybody aware) could be right. Then once she goes off shift there would be nothing to counteract the effect of the insulin and his blood sugar would drop and it would look like it only started after she left. Although if done to hide the fact that his blood sugar was dropping due to insulin in the TPN bag why admit later to having given him glucose injections?

I would imagine that the glucose injections were prescribed by the Dr's to counteract the low blood sugars.
My impression was she was singing for legitimate medication but I suppose we will see when it's covered

 

[Tortoise]

I agree
One of the biggest things for me also is why was LL standing away from the incubator when the baby was crying so badly and had blood around the mouth.

Also LL did not deny it was blood to the mum when she asked

Then she recorded the 9pm aspirates as bile and put the blood back approx an hour and delayed calling a Dr

I cant think of any innocent explanation for this

There's also something of a mismatch between LL's actions and the consultant's and the doctor's actions, early on, IMO.

LL called the midwifery unit before 10.52pm, to get the father to come in (the don't panic but get here call), and then contacted the midwife again at 11.30pm to tell the parents to come down at midnight.

At the 10.52pm point LL's notes said E was 'cold to the touch' and was beginning to 'decline'.

This seems like it might be a level above the doctor's concerns. The consultant didn't come in until after the unexpected collapse at 11.40pm, and Dr Harkness was saying at the 10.52pm point that he had time to take his time for the elective intubation, and E was making good respiratory effort and crying which showed he was taking deep breaths.

 

[Tortoise]

In fact I don't understand why the 11.30 call to get the parents to come down at midnight was made at all. Baby E's sudden unexpected first collapse was at 11.40pm.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

In fact I don't understand why the 11.30 call to get the parents to come down at midnight was made at all. Baby E's sudden unexpected first collapse was at 11.40pm.

I think it might be because they were planning to intubate him and transfer him to a larger facility.