UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Dotta]

From 2018:

The investigation Operation "Hummingbird" has begun

Neonatal nurse who was arrested over 'murder' is released on bail

Lucy Letby, 28, has been bailed pending further inquiries into her connection to 17 babies' deaths at the Countess of Chester Hospital during 2015 and 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

Police officers are digging up land around Lucy Letby's home in Chester and searching gutters after she was arrested on suspicion of the murder of 8 babies at the Countess of Chester hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

I was quite struck by something in the timeline, and that is that it was Father's Day when LL came on shift, on the evening of 21st June 2015.

LL is a daughter. I wonder if she spent that Father's Day celebrating her own father.

Baby D was a daughter. Baby D's dad spent most of that Father's Day in the neonatal unit, with his new baby daughter.

LL seemed to particularly notice D's father. She texted "...Parents absolutely devastated, dad screaming. Andrew Brunton and Liz Newby said it will probably be investigated. Dad is beside himself. ...sometimes I think how is it such sick babies get through and others die so suddenly and unexpectedly. Guess it’s how it’s meant to be. ...there’s a reason for everything."

LL searched for D's father on Facebook 4 months later, in Oct 2015.

It seems particularly cruel for a father to be celebrating the gift of his new daughter on Father's Day, and to be woken in shock in the night and have that joy stripped away from him in under 30 minutes.

This was LL's text after baby A's death - "I just don't know how I'm going to feel seeing parents. Dad was on the floor crying saying ''please don't take our baby away'' when we took him to the mortuary."


Is it significant I wonder.

I had noticed this too; I get a sense of more of a connection/relevance with the fathers of the cases so far than the actual mothers. It’s subtly done but seems to definitely be there. As the cases progress (and compared alongside other factors), the Facebook searches also demonstrates another link (again) with the fathers.
Although we see occasional searches mentioned for the mothers; the text messages between colleagues and searches on Facebook seem to be slightly more geared towards the fathers IMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

None of the babies post-mortems that we've had in evidence at this stage, A, C and D, (baby B didn't die and E didn't have one which the consultant regrets) revealed suspicions.

The doctor has said he had no evidence, just suspicions. The evidence was uncovered by painstaking review of all medical notes over a period of 17 months, the doctor would not have had personal knowledge of all of these cases.

I agree with your point that the doctor had no evidence but even so, it's not his job to provide evidence, it's his job to report suspicions to the appropriate authorities. Law enforcement do the evidence gathering bit and maybe *they* won't act and that's as may be but to fail to alert the appropriate authority when one suspects a person is murdering people makes no sense at all to me.

For that reason, I still suspect that LL is possibly being scapegoated for all manner of hospital failings. JMO MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree with your point that the doctor had no evidence but even so, it's not his job to provide evidence, it's his job to report suspicions to the appropriate authorities. Law enforcement do the evidence gathering bit and maybe *they* won't act and that's as may be but to fail to alert the appropriate authority when one suspects a person is murdering people makes no sense at all to me.

For that reason, I still suspect that LL is possibly being scapegoated for all manner of hospital failings. JMO MOO

But why would the police be interested in scapegoating LL? Like you say, it's the police who "do the evidence gathering bit" and it's the police who decided they had enough evidence to arrest and charge LL for each of the 7 murder and 15 attempted murder charges. The police have no loyalty to the hospital and nothing to gain from charging LL.

 

[Kemug]

It seems particularly cruel for a father to be celebrating the gift of his new daughter on Father's Day, and to be woken in shock in the night and have that joy stripped away from him in under 30 minutes.

Thus ensuring that for this bereaved father Father's Day will be a sad anniversary for the rest of his life.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I get a feeling she was punishing the mothers … just my musings of course.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

But why would the police be interested in scapegoating LL? Like you say, it's the police who "do the evidence gathering bit" and it's the police who decided they had enough evidence to arrest and charge LL for each of the 7 murder and 15 attempted murder charges. The police have no loyalty to the hospital and nothing to gain from charging LL.

I don't think the police are scapegoating LL, that would be too ludicrous for words. If any scapegoating is going on it would have been constructed within hospital senior management and for me, that possibility is still open. JMO MOO

 

[squish]

She was only 25 though. And as far as we know, there's no evidence of her having a partner, let alone a long-term one that she might have undergone IVF treatment with. It just seems so unlikely to me. But JMO.

I think this speculation originated from her note saying “I will never get married or have a family”. People took this to mean she was infertile or something, and then started speculating if she (allegedly) killed babies out of jealousy.

But I think in context of the rest of the note, it’s a tacit acknowledgment that she will be going to prison for a long time, and therefore unable to start a family.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I think at that point it's hugely unlikely the police would actually do anything at all without any kind of evidence. They would most likely tell him to report it to appropriate people at the hospital first

If police batted off an allegation of murder in such a way then we all may as well pack up and go home.

Irrespective of all the instances of unbelievably shocking police practice in the headlines I would hope that any such allegation would be taken seriously and at the very minimum, police contact would be made with the hospital authorities to discuss the circumstances, their investigation so far and any need for police involvement at the present stage.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Like you say, it's the police who "do the evidence gathering bit"

In such a case the police will have required medical experts to advise and assist in identifying, analysing and providing expert 'opinion' on the medical data.

it's the police who decided they had enough evidence to arrest and charge LL for each of the 7 murder and 15 attempted murder charges.

The 'reasonable suspicion' needed to arrest an individual for an offence is negligible.

The Crown Prosecution Service make the charging decision after applying the Full Code Test.....not the police. The CPS are independent of the police. <modsnip: off topic>

 

[katydid23]

I get a feeling she was punishing the mothers … just my musings of course.

My feeling is perhaps the punishing were meant for couples who were in love, and having their family.Allegedly, I think it might have been resentment and jealousy towards something she didn't have?

 

[Eloise]

I can understand why bereaved or affected parents are giving their evidence from behind a screen, but I don't get why some former colleagues are. They are not victims, and by the evidence tendered LL is of no threat to them, they are in the wrong demographic.

My take on it is that it's something sub-judice related; i think that there are other potential legal cases in line after this one and that these people are either witnesses or have themselves brought legal actions which can't be heard until after the conclusion of LL's trial.

We know that the hospital is a complete shower and it's highly likely that some people will have claims against it. We also know that lots of the parents have engaged solicitors (as the solicitors website says they have) so any identification of these witnesses may prejudice these legal actions.

British justice is open and there are very few reasons as to why witnesses are afforded priviledge from having their names reported. These are not "anonymous" witnesses as their names will be given in court, just can't be reported.

Edit: although I don't really understand the need for a screen.

I can't remember exactly what they said, but the journalists who are doing the podcast (including a journo who is in court every day) have said their identities are hidden because they're directly tied to care of the babies and therefore the identities of the babies and families, and they're that determined to keep the identities of the babies/families out of the press as much as possible (yes, it's out there already - because isn't it always, but they're still doing it regardless). Perhaps it's possible to search those families names and see posts with the nurses names or vice versa, so they're playing it super safe.

I think this speculation originated from her note saying “I will never get married or have a family”. People took this to mean she was infertile or something, and then started speculating if she (allegedly) killed babies out of jealousy.

But I think in context of the rest of the note, it’s a tacit acknowledgment that she will be going to prison for a long time, and therefore unable to start a family.

I agree, I think it's that as well. Mostly from the context of the note as a whole and also just based on the assumption that these days most educated, employed, relatively urban 25 year old women aren't really looking to get married or start a family immediately.

 

[Kemug]

My feeling is perhaps the punishing were meant for couples who were in love, and having their family.Allegedly, I think it might have been resentment and jealousy towards something she didn't have?

I have a feeling that we will never know.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think the police are scapegoating LL, that would be too ludicrous for words. If any scapegoating is going on it would have been constructed within hospital senior management and for me, that possibility is still open. JMO MOO

So then, how does a raft of independent medical expert opinion (neonatology experts and paediatric specialists from GOSH) of foul play (deliberate injections of air, trauma bleeding, and non-accidental poisoning with insulin) fit with scapegoating, in your opinion? And how does a mother finding her baby distressed and bleeding from the mouth, her phone records backing up the timing, walking in on LL not attending to his needs or calling a doctor, and making "fraudulent" nursing notes fit with that? There was no other single nurse present for all of these incidents, A to F.

 

[Dotta]

If I remember correctly from a post somwhere above (Timeline), 1 baby was even (allegedly) smothered?
Like suffocated???

 

[Honeybirdette]

Then wouldn't one go to the police? Surely medical doctors would know better than being dissuaded by management if the most serious crime of all - that of murder

I think you are forgetting there was zero evidence that anything was suspicious at that time.
The coroner wasn’t ruling any of the deaths as non natural.
You would need more than “just a hunch” to accuse someone of murder and for police to take the allegation seriously.

 

[Anxala]

I think this speculation originated from her note saying “I will never get married or have a family”. People took this to mean she was infertile or something, and then started speculating if she (allegedly) killed babies out of jealousy.

But I think in context of the rest of the note, it’s a tacit acknowledgment that she will be going to prison for a long time, and therefore unable to start a family.

Exactly that.

 

[Tortoise]

I think you are forgetting there was zero evidence that anything was suspicious at that time.
The coroner wasn’t ruling any of the deaths as non natural.
You would need more than “just a hunch” to accuse someone of murder and for police to take the allegation seriously.

Exactly. I haven't even seen it written anywhere that the doctors were thinking murder. I think it was phrased that some of them had begun to associate the presence of LL and some of these non-fatal collapses or deaths. They didn't have an official diagnosis of air embolism either, this was the eventual suspicion of Dr Jayaram after some research he did late in the day, but the alleged attacks on babies started to vary and as we've seen in many of the babies, it's only through nurses' testimonies that it's been discovered that LL was present in rooms she wasn't designated to be in, only being noticed by some doctors as attending resus after a crash call. At other times the only documented sign of LL was as second signatory on prescriptions or on charts when she wasn't the designated nurse. This kind of thing was down to detective work, seeing that she was on shift for all of them but in about half the cases these were babies officially assigned to other nurses on rota sheets. Looking at her texts to see the extent of her involvement was also police work.

It's pretty obvious to me that colleagues were saying "you're not having a good run" "you need to take time off" when out of six babies A to F she was only the designated nurse for two, A and E! That text after D, where the nurse said "were they that different?" (A, B, C & D) LL is defensive (imo) and immediately reels off the different conditions the babies were suspected to have died from, but they weren't 'LL's' babies.

IMO

 

[Dcflag]

From reading the texts back JJ-K is quite the hard . She was quite happy to tell LL she thought she was being odd and that she needed to consider what to do very carefully when LL was running on about how affected she was. The bit as well when LL apologises for being in a bad mood and JJ-K replies really stands out to me as an odd interaction too. I genuinely wonder if there were suspicions from staff that predate baby A.

I also though the text conversation between her and SE was interesting given that she was supposedly the new girl, yet was talking LL down from her ledge.

 

[Kemug]

From reading the texts back JJ-K is quite the hard *advertiser censored*. She was quite happy to tell LL she thought she was being odd and that she needed to consider what to do very carefully when LL was running on about how affected she was. The bit as well when LL apologises for being in a bad mood and JJ-K replies really stands out to me as an odd interaction too.

I don't think I saw that bit - yes, I've been wondering what her fellow nurses thought then, and what they think now. If LL is found guilty, I suppose we can expect some "I nursed with LL" stories in the press.