UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Tortoise]

So LL went off shift on the morning of the 4th, after baby E died.

This was earlier testimony about the handover procedure -Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

"Miss Taylor explains the shift leader gives the hand-over to the new nurses coming in for the following shift in a 'huddle', lasting '10-15 minutes'. The shift leader would be a 'band 6 nurse'. The shift leader is "usually pre-allocated", but could change. There would be a 'handover sheet' with babies' names and an outline of care provided the previous shift."

Surely LL would have known about the handover, especially since nurses seem to have babies allocated to their care in more than one room and would be helping each other out on breaks, not to mention they would still encounter the parents coming into the unit because baby F was still there -

8.58am -
Colleague: "You ok? Just heard about [E]. Did you have him? Sending hugs xx"
LL: "News travels fast - who told you? Yeah I had them both, was horrible."
Colleague responded that she had been informed by someone at the handover 'told me just now'. 'Had he been getting poorly or was it sudden?' ‘Poor you. You’re having a tough time of it.”

 

[Dotta]

I think Baby E was trying to tell them something in the only way he could! He was screaming out in pain. No wonder his parents were so alarmed. He suffered a prolonged and painful death.

Yes.
Even Fate seemed to be fed up and directed Mother to her baby at this exact moment

Moo

 

[Tortoise]

"yeah I had them both"

I find this reply a little odd, distracting maybe. Colleague is asking about E and LL says she looked after his brother too. In other words, notice I also had one who survived.

IMO

 

[Tortoise]

So LL went off shift on the morning of the 4th, after baby E died.

This was earlier testimony about the handover procedure -Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

"Miss Taylor explains the shift leader gives the hand-over to the new nurses coming in for the following shift in a 'huddle', lasting '10-15 minutes'. The shift leader would be a 'band 6 nurse'. The shift leader is "usually pre-allocated", but could change. There would be a 'handover sheet' with babies' names and an outline of care provided the previous shift."

Surely LL would have known about the handover, especially since nurses seem to have babies allocated to their care in more than one room and would be helping each other out on breaks, not to mention they would still encounter the parents coming into the unit because baby F was still there -

8.58am -
Colleague: "You ok? Just heard about [E]. Did you have him? Sending hugs xx"
LL: "News travels fast - who told you? Yeah I had them both, was horrible."
Colleague responded that she had been informed by someone at the handover 'told me just now'. 'Had he been getting poorly or was it sudden?' ‘Poor you. You’re having a tough time of it.”

Oh I've just realised this colleague might not have been on duty, just someone who was at the handover had told her. That's why LL was surprised, I think. So I think a nurse at the handover had texted this colleague, and LL wanted to know who was texting about her to the colleague. IMO

 

[katydid23]

Lucy Letby trial: Medical tool may have injured baby, expert says

A baby's internal bleeding had no innocent explanation, a doctor tells the trial of Lucy Letby.

www.bbc.com

 

[5W's]

Could this mean that the staff were on strike? (seems like they may have had cause, IMO!)

No as I mentioned in post 63 this thread or tried to anyway convey that the staff working with her didn't follow proper protocalls IMO (the doctor?) and when things went wrong with their charges the babies at tleast six times the ward was closed to investigate possibly. I mean a doctor stated about the baby losing so much blood then why didn't that doctor take it up with superiors to investigate. So IMO there are indications that following proper procedures were ignored and when a problem occurred it may have either been investigated with negligence possibly (not properly) or/and covered up to state all was fine and some excuse given as to why the baby had the problem and it was business back to usual while not acknowledging that Letby may have been harming babies. Otherwise 6 times is highly unusual IMO and indicates something is going on which wasn't picked up by those 6 investigations if the ward was closed for this purpose! MOO

 

[5W's]

I think Baby E was trying to tell them something in the only way he could! He was screaming out in pain. No wonder his parents were so alarmed. He suffered a prolonged and painful death.

That's what I was thinking also. You said it well.

 

[ColourPurple]

As I am following the case, and am coming to certain conclusions, I wonder if LL's parents are doing the same thing. Those poor people.

I was just thinking of this aspect. In the James Bulger case apparently one of the boys who killed him would not admit to it until his parents promised him that they would still love him no matter what. In this case obviously LL is an adult not a child, and we have no idea whether she's guilty or not at this point, but the note she wrote that said " I killed them on purpose" also said "I don't deserve mum and dad". If guilty, then it's possible that LL's greatest fear is exactly the same as the boy who killed Jamie Bulger, that her parents wouldn't love her if she admitted her (alleged) guilt.

Obviously, I can't fully appreciate the position her parents are in, or what they're thinking, but I wonder if them reassuring her that they would love her regardless, would allow her to admit to the alleged crimes (if guilty). Then we wouldn't have scenes like her defence pretty much accusing a bereaved mother of exaggerating how horrific her baby's cries were.

 

[Dotta]

I was just thinking of this aspect. In the James Bulger case apparently one of the boys who killed him would not admit to it until his parents promised him that they would still love him no matter what. In this case obviously LL is an adult not a child, and we have no idea whether she's guilty or not at this point, but the note she wrote that said " I killed them on purpose" also said "I don't deserve mum and dad". If guilty, then it's possible that LL's greatest fear is exactly the same as the boy who killed Jamie Bulger, that her parents wouldn't love her if she admitted her (alleged) guilt.

Obviously, I can't fully appreciate the position her parents are in, or what they're thinking, but I wonder if them reassuring her that they would love her regardless, would allow her to admit to the alleged crimes (if guilty). Then we wouldn't have scenes like her defence pretty much accusing a bereaved mother of exaggerating how horrific her baby's cries were.

Alleged possible motive of punishing the parents says a lot.

It is only my opinion.

 

[squish]

I agree. When I first heard of this case, before I'd heard the details, I assumed this was a case of a hospital blaming an individual for systematically poor care. A person who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, or a person/people who were put into an impossible, unreasonable or unsafe situation. However, the testimony thus far has not supported this conclusion. These deaths are extremely shocking. Dr. Harkness's testimony in particular was very compelling for me, as the steps he took at the time would have been reasonable had Baby E been suffering a natural deterioration. I believe the expert testimony has supported that.

Additionally the hospital, it seems, really began the investigation with the assumption that it could have been systematically poor care that caused these deaths. Hospitals have self-review systems intended to discover systematic weaknesses which compromise patient safety through medical errors. The investigation began with CoC's initial self-review, first at the unit level, then at the hospital level (I'm sorry I cannot find this particular timeline, but I believe it was among one of @Tortoise's many well-sourced posts). CoC then voluntarily made a request for outside review: (Neonatal Review and Update | Countess of Chester Hospital) Those are good faith actions of a unit that is trying to do better for the patients, not one that is looking for a scapegoat. It seems that only once "medical error" didn't make sense were the police involved. (Neonatal Update - Thursday 18 May | Countess of Chester Hospital)

In addition to this, the hospital contacted the police themselves, even though the review didn’t suggest criminal activity. This would have given them the perfect opportunity to rugsweep, if they wished to.

The hospital have nothing to gain from scapegoating Lucy Letby; this trial is making them look terrible.

If LL is innocent, it’s not because she’s a scapegoat.

 

[squish]

I was just thinking of this aspect. In the James Bulger case apparently one of the boys who killed him would not admit to it until his parents promised him that they would still love him no matter what. In this case obviously LL is an adult not a child, and we have no idea whether she's guilty or not at this point, but the note she wrote that said " I killed them on purpose" also said "I don't deserve mum and dad". If guilty, then it's possible that LL's greatest fear is exactly the same as the boy who killed Jamie Bulger, that her parents wouldn't love her if she admitted her (alleged) guilt.

Obviously, I can't fully appreciate the position her parents are in, or what they're thinking, but I wonder if them reassuring her that they would love her regardless, would allow her to admit to the alleged crimes (if guilty). Then we wouldn't have scenes like her defence pretty much accusing a bereaved mother of exaggerating how horrific her baby's cries were.

In the case of killer trainee nurse Benjamin Geen, the evidence was stronger and more clear-cut than the prosecution’s case for LL. He was even caught red-handed outside of hospital with a well-used syringe of the lethal drug.

Yet, 16 years after his conviction, his parents still insist on his innocence and campaign for him.

I asked my mum, if it had been me or my brother being accused of what LL is, bearing in mind all of the evidence, would you believe it? My mum admitted she probably wouldn’t, even though she believes LL did it.

What I’m getting at, in these cases where it’s circumstantial and the evidence lacks the “smoking gun” forensics that juries and the public want, it’s easier for parents to believe that there has been a terrible miscarriage of justice rather than accept that their child is a cold-blooded killer.

It wouldn’t surprise me that even if LL was guilty, she knows her parents will still whole heartedly support her innocence.

 

[squish]

There are many medical reasons for bleeding without the involvement of trauma and the mothers testimony is not fact. It is her recollection of a point in time.

The experts could only find one potential non-traumatic cause of bleeding, which is an extremely rare condition involving an artery of the stomach. So rare, that only six cases have been documented. That is not “many medical reasons for bleeding”.

That is pretty insulting to the mother’s intelligence. I’m sure that her memory of her dying, screaming, bloodied baby will remain fresh in her memory for the rest of her life.

 

[Anxala]

As I am following the case, and am coming to certain conclusions, I wonder if LL's parents are doing the same thing. Those poor people.

I feel so sorry for them. It must be so incredibly harrowing, these past six years, the shock, the stunning nature of the charges, the trying to stay positive. I can't even imagine the desperate shadow it's cast on their lives. And now the turning up every day to support their daughter, having to listen to the alleged evidence against her, not knowing where it's going and what the outcome is going to be. They're as much grieving parents as those of the little lost babies.

 

[Sundial]

Just going back through what we’ve heard so far on the cases and comparing with the others we’ve still yet to hear.

When we look at the alleged charges for babies E&F (the twins) aside from the bleeding we see air embolism for child E and insulin poising for child F in 2015

• 04 August
  Count 5: Child E (twin) - murder (air embolus & bleeding)
• 05 August
  Count 6: Child F (twin) - attempted murder (insulin poisoning)

Then if we look at twins L&M in 2016 these two cases are strikingly similar.

• 09 April
  Count 15: Child L (twin) - attempted murder (insulin poisoning)
• 09 April
  Count 16: Child M (twin) - attempted murder (air embolus)

One twin in both these cases; is injected with air, whilst the sibling other has insulin poisoning.

Child E in this case with the bleeding in 2015; I think someone mentioned it here briefly before, again, there are similarities with child O in 2016

• 23 June
  Count 20: Child O (triplet) - murder (inflicted trauma to the liver & bolus of air in NG tube)

List of charges and the case so far here

Lucy Letby Case Wiki

This wiki is about the trial of Nurse Lucy Letby who was charged with the murder and attempted murder of 17 babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, between June 2015 and June 2016. There are 22 charges in total, 7 murder and 15 attempted murder. Lucy pleaded not guilty to all charges and...

tattle.life

 

[MsBetsy]

The experts could only find one potential non-traumatic cause of bleeding, which is an extremely rare condition involving an artery of the stomach. So rare, that only six cases have been documented. That is not “many medical reasons for bleeding”.

That is pretty insulting to the mother’s intelligence. I’m sure that her memory of her dying, screaming, bloodied baby will remain fresh in her memory for the rest of her life.

Yes. The child was bleeding internally which as far as I know is an emergency that can lead to death in hours. I would expect such an injury in someone hit by a car, not a newborn baby.

He was screaming when the mother rushed into the room, while LL was at the work station doing nothing to help. Good thing she phoned her husband right after the incident.

 

[Sundial]

Here, comparing against the case of baby E, more similarities of “inflicted trauma” from the cases then in 2016

• 03 June
  Count 17: Child N - attempted murder (inflicted trauma)
• 15 June
  Count 18: Child N - attempted murder (inflicted trauma)
• 15 June
  Count 19: Child N - attempted murder (inflicted trauma)
• 23 June
  Count 20: Child O (triplet) - murder (inflicted trauma to the liver & bolus of air in NG tube)

I can’t imagine the upset of the families and all involved any why anyone would deliberately do anything quite so harrowing MOO.

Lucy Letby Case Wiki

This wiki is about the trial of Nurse Lucy Letby who was charged with the murder and attempted murder of 17 babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, between June 2015 and June 2016. There are 22 charges in total, 7 murder and 15 attempted murder. Lucy pleaded not guilty to all charges and...

tattle.life

 

[Dotta]

Umm...
Even Ted B had cooling-off periods.

If LL is guilty, I can't see any here.

Alleged:
murders, attempted murders, AE, inflicted traumas, insulin poisonings - all the time.
My head is spinning

Is it some alleged undiagnosed severe mental illness?

Usually, in my country, such controversial defendants undergo complex psychiatric examinations before a trial.

Moo

 

[ColourPurple]

Just going back through what we’ve heard so far on the cases and comparing with the others we’ve still yet to hear.

When we look at the alleged charges for babies E&F (the twins) aside from the bleeding we see air embolism for child E and insulin poising for child F in 2015

• 04 August
  Count 5: Child E (twin) - murder (air embolus & bleeding)
• 05 August
  Count 6: Child F (twin) - attempted murder (insulin poisoning)

Then if we look at twins L&M in 2016 these two cases are strikingly similar.

• 09 April
  Count 15: Child L (twin) - attempted murder (insulin poisoning)
• 09 April
  Count 16: Child M (twin) - attempted murder (air embolus)

One twin in both these cases; is injected with air, whilst the sibling other has insulin poisoning.

Child E in this case with the bleeding in 2015; I think someone mentioned it here briefly before, again, there are similarities with child O in 2016

• 23 June
  Count 20: Child O (triplet) - murder (inflicted trauma to the liver & bolus of air in NG tube)

List of charges and the case so far here

Lucy Letby Case Wiki

This wiki is about the trial of Nurse Lucy Letby who was charged with the murder and attempted murder of 17 babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, between June 2015 and June 2016. There are 22 charges in total, 7 murder and 15 attempted murder. Lucy pleaded not guilty to all charges and...

tattle.life

So in cases where twins or triplets are involved there may have been a deliberate attempt by the perpetrator to use different methods for each baby. Maybe as, if "successful" it would look more suspicious if both had the same symptoms and cause of death?

Also, the twin E and F case and the triplet case are the only cases where I've seen it mentioned that LL took photographs of the babies.

After baby E's death LL took a photo of baby F "holding" baby E's teddy and gave it to the parents.
After triplet baby O and triplet baby P's deaths LL took a picture of them together in a cot.

Triplet baby P was also killed just before he (and presumably the other surviving triplet baby Q) was about to be transferred to another hospital.
Twin baby E was killed just before he (and presumably twin F) was about to be transferred to another hospital.

"The defendant is said to have murdered Child P, one of triplets on June 24 2016 – the day after she is said to have murdered his brother, Child O.
Child P suffered an “acute deterioration” before preparations were put in place to move him to another hospital.
Just before the planned transfer, a doctor was said to be “optimistic” about his prospects but then “all of a sudden Lucy Letby said to him something like ‘he’s not leaving alive here, is he?’”, said Mr Johnson.
Shortly after, Child P collapsed and died, Manchester Crown Court heard.
A coroner recorded the death as “prematurity” but independent experts who were tasked with reviewing Child P’s case said the most likely cause was air injected into his stomach which compromised his breathing.
After Child P’s death, Letby spent time with his parents and at one point took a photograph of Child P and his brother, Child O, in a cot, the court heard."

Full list: the deaths and collapses Hereford nurse Lucy Letby is accused of causing

THE METHODS Hereford nurse Lucy Letby is alleged to have used to harm babies in her care have been revealed in her trial.

www.herefordtimes.com

 

[ColourPurple]

Here, comparing against the case of baby E, more similarities of “inflicted trauma” from the cases then in 2016

• 03 June
  Count 17: Child N - attempted murder (inflicted trauma)
• 15 June
  Count 18: Child N - attempted murder (inflicted trauma)
• 15 June
  Count 19: Child N - attempted murder (inflicted trauma)
• 23 June
  Count 20: Child O (triplet) - murder (inflicted trauma to the liver & bolus of air in NG tube)

I can’t imagine the upset of the families and all involved any why anyone would deliberately do anything quite so harrowing MOO.

Lucy Letby Case Wiki

This wiki is about the trial of Nurse Lucy Letby who was charged with the murder and attempted murder of 17 babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, between June 2015 and June 2016. There are 22 charges in total, 7 murder and 15 attempted murder. Lucy pleaded not guilty to all charges and...

tattle.life

It might sound weird but that's what is really hitting home for me. That whoever killed these babies wasn't "just" killing them, they were inflicting horrible pain on to them too. Onto tiny little helpless babies. Its horrific!

 

[Sundial]

So in cases where twins or triplets are involved there may have been a deliberate attempt by the perpetrator to use different methods for each baby. Maybe as, if "successful" it would look more suspicious if both had the same symptoms and cause of death?

Also, the twin E and F case and the triplet case are the only cases where I've seen it mentioned that LL took photographs of the babies.

After baby E's death LL took a photo of baby F "holding" baby E's teddy and gave it to the parents.
After triplet baby O and triplet baby P's deaths LL took a picture of them together in a cot.

Triplet baby P was also killed just before he (and presumably the other surviving triplet baby Q) was about to be transferred to another hospital.
Twin baby E was killed just before he (and presumably twin F) was about to be transferred to another hospital.

Full list: the deaths and collapses Hereford nurse Lucy Letby is accused of causing

THE METHODS Hereford nurse Lucy Letby is alleged to have used to harm babies in her care have been revealed in her trial.

www.herefordtimes.com

Indeed; I hadn’t considered the transferring to another hospital- good and very interesting point!

It really does seem to suggest a pattern of babies who were due to be transferred, to then coincidentally and so very sadly die.

Also, you make a very good point with the mention of the photographs with these babies too. The patterns emerging the more the case progresses. Whilst I have tried to be impartial and consider the “what ifs” or innocent explanations, I’m finding it very difficult to do so and just have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. Whatever the outcome, my deepest thoughts go out to these families, it must be absolutely agonising for them