UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Eloise]

I have gotten around to listening to The Trial of Lucy Letby podcast, and I do recommend it for all people with an interest in the case! There's nothing in it anyone who has been following the case won't have heard or read already really, but it does give another perspective to hear it and they also have some extra interviews and stuff that give info that's useful especially for non-UK Websleuths, such as on UK media law etc.

I believe a previous poster said they thought it made LL sound guilty, or that the presenters were more on the prosecution's side, but I personally disagree (JMO! sorry to that poster) and think it's quite even-handed. They're journalists who take the UK requirements that they be balanced and only report on what's been said in court seriously, so as they themselves said, if what's been presented so far is mostly from the prosecution then it will sound like it's pro-prosecution, but it's just that that's all that's been presented so far (as the defence experts are yet to appear).

 

[Tortoise]

It's not that it would mean there was no insulin in the first bag; there clearly was so that's not a question in my mind - it's that it could mean there was also insulin in the second bag, which was prepared when LL wasn't present. In other words, the insulin poisoner couldn't be her in that situation (I'm sure people can come up with complicated theories to explain it, but not being present for 4/8 hours before the change is very clear "reasonable doubt" IMO). And since it seems clear that someone caused such a high level of insulin to occur, what chance is there of there being two people with murderous intent in the same hospital at the same time?

Which makes it extremely important to determine if or when the bag was changed - and if it was, how long that much insulin would continue having an effect inside baby F after the source is removed. It may well be the second bag is a red herring, either there never was one, or it wouldn't have shown an effect in that much time anyway (assuming it was benign), in which case, case very near proved.

Hopefully there can be some clarity on that from future witnesses, as it seems so important to me, as in, make or break the entire case level of importance. So, no doubt there'll be no confirmation either way and we'll be left to speculate for the rest of the trial

The bag that was fitted after the line was changed must have been either the same bag or a stock bag from the fridge. I think it's unlikely to have been a stock bag if there is no doctor's note to discard the bespoke bag and use a stock bag until a new one could be prescribed.

The nurse's text to LL later that night says the line was changed, not the TPN, because they thought the line was causing the problem, although this didn't happen on her shift.

"She messaged LL: "He is a bit more stable, heart rate 160-170." (The long line had "tissued" and F's thigh was "swollen". It was thought the tissued long line "may be" the cause of the hypoglycemia.)
Colleague: "Changed long line but sugars still 1.9 all afternoon. Seems like long line tissued was not cause of sugar problem, doing various tests to try to find answers”

The professor said it must have been the same bag, [and?] a contaminated stock bag, or the hardware was contaminated from the first bag.

If it was a stock bag it wouldn't explain the problems starting when the first bag was connected by LL.

IMO

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

A short summary of some of yesterdays evidence here

Lucy Letby trial: Accused nurse went salsa dancing night after ‘murder bid’

LUCY LETBY went salsa dancing the night after she allegedly attempted to murder a baby boy, a court has heard.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Just adds a little bit more to the text conversations

 

[Tortoise]

This is what I think the defence will hone in on - the unnamed designated night-shift nurse. Frustrating that the live updates didn't include the text verbatim, it's possibly the most important bit.

Prior to 10am – LL has been messaging the night-shift designated nurse for F;
LL: "Did you hear what [F]'s sugar was at 8[am]?"
Nurse: "No?"
LL: "1.8"
Nurse: "[S***]!!!!", adding she felt "awful" for her care of F that night.
LL: "Something isn't right if he is dropping like that," adding that F's heel has to be taken into consideration [as blood gas tests are taken via heel pricks, and cannot be done too regularly].
Nurse: "Exactly, he had so much handling. No something not right. Heart rate and sugars."
LL: "Dr Gibbs came so hopefully they will get him sorted. "He is a worry [though]."
Nurse: "Hpe so. He is a worry."
LL: "Hope you sleep well...let me know how [F] is tonight please."
Nurse: "I will hun".


Although they did say in their opening speech that it was the second bag (the one connected after the line was changed) but they could be implying that she contaminated that too.

I do hope Chester Standard doesn't have any days off this week.

I just want to add he did a sterling job yesterday, that was not easy testimony to be capturing live! So much detail.

IMO

 

[MsBetsy]

The bag that was fitted after the line was changed must have been either the same bag or a stock bag from the fridge. I think it's unlikely to have been a stock bag if there is no doctor's note to discard the bespoke bag and use a stock bag until a new one could be prescribed.

The nurse's text to LL later that night says the line was changed, not the TPN, because they thought the line was causing the problem, although this didn't happen on her shift.

"She messaged LL: "He is a bit more stable, heart rate 160-170." (The long line had "tissued" and F's thigh was "swollen". It was thought the tissued long line "may be" the cause of the hypoglycemia.)
Colleague: "Changed long line but sugars still 1.9 all afternoon. Seems like long line tissued was not cause of sugar problem, doing various tests to try to find answers”

The professor said it must have been the same bag, a contaminated stock bag, or the hardware was contaminated from the first bag.

If it was a stock bag it wouldn't explain the problems starting when the first bag was connected by LL.

IMO

Yeah, I think there was only one bag that was contaminated since LL asked investigators if they had checked 'the' bag.

 

[Tortoise]

Yeah, I think there was only one bag that was contaminated since LL asked investigators if they had checked 'the' bag.

Agree, and what's really important to note is that the low blood sugar readings during LL's night-shift and the morning were persisting even with three glucose injections during her shift.

 

[MsBetsy]

This is what I think the defence will hone in on - the unnamed designated night-shift nurse. Frustrating that the live updates didn't include the text verbatim, it's possibly the most important bit.

Prior to 10am – LL has been messaging the night-shift designated nurse for F;
LL: "Did you hear what [F]'s sugar was at 8[am]?"
Nurse: "No?"
LL: "1.8"
Nurse: "[S***]!!!!", adding she felt "awful" for her care of F that night.
LL: "Something isn't right if he is dropping like that," adding that F's heel has to be taken into consideration [as blood gas tests are taken via heel pricks, and cannot be done too regularly].
Nurse: "Exactly, he had so much handling. No something not right. Heart rate and sugars."
LL: "Dr Gibbs came so hopefully they will get him sorted. "He is a worry [though]."
Nurse: "Hpe so. He is a worry."
LL: "Hope you sleep well...let me know how [F] is tonight please."
Nurse: "I will hun".


Although they did say in their opening speech that it was the second bag (the one connected after the line was changed) but they could be implying that she contaminated that too.

I do hope Chester Standard doesn't have any days off this week.

I just want to add he did a sterling job yesterday, that was not easy testimony to be capturing live! So much detail.

IMO

So they do think both bags could have been contaminated? I hope they clear this up eventually but I guess it's possible they don't know for sure? Although maybe since Baby F had so much insulin in his system the only conclusion is that he was deliberately poisoned?

 

[Tortoise]

So they do think both bags could have been contaminated? I hope they clear this up eventually but I guess it's possible they don't know for sure? Although maybe since Baby F had so much insulin in his system the only conclusion is that he was deliberately poisoned?

I think a second bag contamination has to be listed as a theoretical possibility but it's not the prosecution's theory of what happened. They say the bag connected by LL was the contaminated bag, and it was the same bag connected all day, paused during the change of line.

 

[JosieJo]

What I do not understand is ..if a new bag was started the new bag reference number would be noted on the prescription chart. They would know if a new bag was started.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree that the two things can co-exist. I don't think her going to Salsa is damning on its own at all. If she is innocent then it wouldn't be unusual for somebody in her line of work to have a social life and hobbies to take their mind off the upsetting part of their job. However, if she is guilty and the prosecution is able to prove it beyond reasonable doubt then it shows a real callousness, lack of remorse and almost detachment to go to Salsa, so soon after killing one baby and trying to kill that baby's twin. Maybe that would influence the sentencing?

IMO

Of course dancing is not suspicious or indicative of guilt.

Dancing is however pretty symbolic if the jury decides she'd murdered a baby the day before and was attempting to murder his brother that day.

Maybe it's theoretically exculpatory evidence too, which the prosecution has a duty to present, showing she wasn't worried about anything. As would be buying a house.

It's also about balance of evidence, if there's evidence she claimed to be crying and was saying the deaths were too much to cope with, it's a relevant contrast to note she was dancing after another death.

IMO

 

[Tortoise]

What I do not understand is ..if a new bag was started the new bag reference number would be noted on the prescription chart. They would know if a new bag was started.

Would that still be the case if it was a stock bag, wasn't prescribed?

 

[katydid23]

I couldn't find any reporting from today's trial. Is there no testimony going on?

 

[JosieJo]

Would that still be the case if it was a stock bag, wasn't prescribed?

Yes definitely every type of stock bag of every fluid has a number ..even a plain saline drip ...its all about tracing a stock back if there was a problem

 

[Tortoise]

I couldn't find any reporting from today's trial. Is there no testimony going on?

I can't find any tweets either. That media room set aside for 50 journalists for the trial is a bit of a joke imo. I think it should have been held at the Old Bailey tbh, where there is a bigger pool of court reporters.

I hope we get something tonight.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes definitely every type of stock bag of every fluid has a number ..even a plain saline drip ...its all about tracing a stock back if there was a problem

Makes sense.

I wonder if there is no stock take either, that would show if the bags that came in were used for other babies.

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/Tom_Mullen

I’m there, there should be a write-up as usual later

 

[Tortoise]

I can't find any tweets either. That media room set aside for 50 journalists for the trial is a bit of a joke imo. I think it should have been held at the Old Bailey tbh, where there is a bigger pool of court reporters.

I hope we get something tonight.

Although that wouldn't be fair for the families of the babies, or the witnesses, so it's absolutely right that it's held in Manchester.

Should think before I speak.

 

[Tortoise]

yesterday's DM - Lucy Letby went salsa dancing hours after 'trying to kill baby'

"Letby, who is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder a further ten told her friend: 'Something isn’t right if he’s dropping like that with the amount of fluid he’s had and being 1.65kg…"

Dr Beech's testimony - F weighed 1.296kg [2lb 13oz], from a birth weight of 1.434kg [3lb 2oz]

1.65kg is 3lb 10oz. LL thought he was quite a bit heavier than he was. Quite strange really being as she had been his designated nurse for 3 nights.

Weight must be a factor when determining how much medication of any sort that a baby can have.

 

[ShireChe]

Of course dancing is not suspicious or indicative of guilt.

Dancing is however pretty symbolic if the jury decides she'd murdered a baby the day before and was attempting to murder his brother that day.

Maybe it's theoretically exculpatory evidence too, which the prosecution has a duty to present, showing she wasn't worried about anything. As would be buying a house.

It's also about balance of evidence, if there's evidence she claimed to be crying and was saying the deaths were too much to cope with, it's a relevant contrast to note she was dancing after another death.

IMO

Paramedics and other people face situations like these constantly. If a friend of mine who lived alone was upset or distressed after things happening at work I would 100% encourage them to go and get some exercise in a social setting. I certainly wouldn't question how they could go out after being upset.

I'm not answering this in relation to her overall guilt, I'm just confused at what the prosecution are trying to gain from that.

 

[Tortoise]

Paramedics and other people face situations like these constantly. If a friend of mine who lived alone was upset or distressed after things happening at work I would 100% encourage them to go and get some exercise in a social setting. I certainly wouldn't question how they could go out after being upset.

I'm not answering this in relation to her overall guilt, I'm just confused at what the prosecution are trying to gain from that.

As I've said, I think the evidence could be exculpatory, (the defence is entitled to it being shown) showing she isn't worried about being caught poisoning a baby for instance, and planning on living near the hospital long term, and it's also character evidence, as much as her alleged crying and worrying is.

Both sides need to present the person accused of a string of unthinkable acts, otherwise it's just her nursing notes they have, and nothing can be gleaned from that about her, except the odd parents' memories here and there.