UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

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  • #761
Umm...

Personality disorders of such magnitude don't just happen out of the blue.
They are usually formed in early childhood due to unfavourable experiences.

Moo

 
  • #762
Some of the typical characteristics that a person with a sadistic personality has are:
  • They enjoy seeing people hurt.
  • They enjoy inflicting pain on others.
  • They cherish the idea of others being in pain.
  • They think it is all right to cause others pain.
  • They fantasize about hurting others.
If she was getting a thrill out of it, then I wonder if she ever cried? Is there any evidence of her ever crying after a baby died? I’m sure nurses are some of the most mentally strong individuals. You have to be with all the things they see in a day. But seeing a child die right in front of you must trigger some emotion. We’re all humans. But was Lucy ever seen emotional after any of these baby’s died?
 
  • #763
If she was getting a thrill out of it, then I wonder if she ever cried? Is there any evidence of her ever crying after a baby died? I’m sure nurses are some of the most mentally strong individuals. You have to be with all the things they see in a day. But seeing a child die right in front of you must trigger some emotion. We’re all humans. But was Lucy ever seen emotional after any of these baby’s died?

We've heard no evidence of her crying but there is this description of her behaviour after Baby I died. (who we haven't got to yet in the trial)

"The court heard how in the immediate aftermath of Child I's death her parents were taken to a private room and asked if the baby's mother wanted to bathe her daughter.

As the mother did so, Ms Letby came in and, in the words of the mother, "was smiling and kept going on about how she was present at the baby's first bath and how much the baby had loved it".

The jury was told Ms Letby later sent a sympathy card to the child's parents and kept an image of the card on her phone.
"

 
  • #764
We've heard no evidence of her crying but there is this description of her behaviour after Baby I died. (who we haven't got to yet in the trial)

"The court heard how in the immediate aftermath of Child I's death her parents were taken to a private room and asked if the baby's mother wanted to bathe her daughter.

As the mother did so, Ms Letby came in and, in the words of the mother, "was smiling and kept going on about how she was present at the baby's first bath and how much the baby had loved it".

The jury was told Ms Letby later sent a sympathy card to the child's parents and kept an image of the card on her phone.
"

I also remember cheerful "Hasta luego" and salsa dancing.
 
  • #765
There is a thing that struck me in this case and it concerns text messages between LL and her colleagues regarding little patients:
their discussions about babies' state, treatments, making hypotheses, etc. in whattsup.

Granted, I'm a teacher, not a nurse but I would never discuss my pupils' situation in text messages.
Never.

This is strictly confidential info, we sign confidentiality document at work.
We discuss such things at school meetings but never through social media.

Laws regarding privacy, especially concerning patients are very strict.
Moo
I know several nurses and they all text each other about patients, usually in an innocent ''how are they doing'' way when they're off shift and want to know if their patients are okay really, rather than intentionally sharing private information they are discussing patients which are already known to all the nurses and just checking in because they care
 
  • #766
It truly is awful, my heart breaks for the families.

For some reason my mind keeps returning to a number of the attacks being made on multiple births, now this is just speculation on my part no news or anything has reported a link that I’m aware of anyhow, I was wondering if IVF or similar treatment maybe some motive to link, just where my thoughts are at the moment. Probably completely off track and just my own opinion.
This has been speculated before, it has been removed by mods. But yes, this is my opinion too. I do think IVF may be part of any motive, if guilty. JMO.
 
  • #767
I know several nurses and they all text each other about patients, usually in an innocent ''how are they doing'' way when they're off shift and want to know if their patients are okay really, rather than intentionally sharing private information they are discussing patients which are already known to all the nurses and just checking in because they care
I understand.
But mixing personal life (off shift) and work one never ends well.

Besides, when a text concerning a patient is out there, one never knows who might read it and how it can be used.

I just follow regulations and am at peace haha

Moo
 
  • #768
It truly is awful, my heart breaks for the families.

For some reason my mind keeps returning to a number of the attacks being made on multiple births, now this is just speculation on my part no news or anything has reported a link that I’m aware of anyhow, I was wondering if IVF or similar treatment maybe some motive to link, just where my thoughts are at the moment. Probably completely off track and just my own opinion.

^ Are you thinking disapproval from a religious/moral perspective? Is LL religious?

Frankly, I don't think anything's off track in this case. It is incredibly perplexing on so many levels.
 
  • #769
Is it being 'reinterpreted' or was it investigated and researched by top medical experts who formally concluded that the events surrounding the skin discolouration had certain causes that could now be ascertained?

It truly is awful, my heart breaks for the families.

For some reason my mind keeps returning to a number of the attacks being made on multiple births, now this is just speculation on my part no news or anything has reported a link that I’m aware of anyhow, I was wondering if IVF or similar treatment maybe some motive to link, just where my thoughts are at the moment. Probably completely off track and just my own opinion.
I wondered this as also Baby F was tested for Downs, usually this is with older parents. Maybe they had been waiting years and they were IVF babies.
 
  • #770
^ Are you thinking disapproval from a religious/moral perspective? Is LL religious?

Frankly, I don't think anything's off track in this case. It is incredibly perplexing on so many levels.
Possible, or…. well I have other thoughts as I’m sure we all do.

Also apologies someone above mentioned IVF has been mentioned before but has been removed previously. As I mentioned it is purely speculation on my part.
 
  • #771
Possible, or…. well I have other thoughts as I’m sure we all do.

Also apologies someone above mentioned IVF has been mentioned before but has been removed previously. As I mentioned it is purely speculation on my part.

I'm sorry to appear dense here (it won't be either the first or the last time) but I genuinely don't know or understand what the other thoughts might be re IVF.

I don't want to get anyone into mod trouble here but is it possible to outline what the 'other thoughts' are? And also why they might incur Mod trouble?
 
  • #772
It truly is awful, my heart breaks for the families.

For some reason my mind keeps returning to a number of the attacks being made on multiple births, now this is just speculation on my part no news or anything has reported a link that I’m aware of anyhow, I was wondering if IVF or similar treatment maybe some motive to link, just where my thoughts are at the moment. Probably completely off track and just my own opinion.
I was wondering the same, but then I figured that maybe she just had a lot of patients that were multiple birth babies. Many premature babies are twins, triplets, etc.
 
  • #773
Oh, and what about the "Memory box" LL prepared for parents??

If guilty, wasn't it perverse to handle the dead baby's body to make imprints of his tiny hands and feet??

And all under the disguise of empathy???

Words fail me :(

Moo
It is a kind thing to do, if you are NOT the one that harmed the baby.
 
  • #774
I'm sorry to appear dense here (it won't be either the first or the last time) but I genuinely don't know or understand what the other thoughts might be re IVF.

I don't want to get anyone into mod trouble here but is it possible to outline what the 'other thoughts' are? And also why they might incur Mod trouble?
:) her own journey with it maybe in some way. IF that is part of her own past.

By the mod trouble, I didn’t mean my own thoughts on it. I meant apparently IVF has been quoted before and posts removed so I took that to mean it wasn’t to be discussed as it’s not been mentioned at the trial itself.
 
  • #775
It is a kind thing to do, if you are NOT the one that harmed the baby.
That is why I wrote:
IF GUILTY!!!

I dont want any misunderstanding here!
 
  • #776
That is why I wrote IF GUILTY!!!
I dont want any misunderstanding here!
oh sorry, I understood. I was agreeing with you, but didn't word it very well.

Making that little memorial packet was very kind of her, IF she is innocent. But if she is not, then it was a perverse and sadistic thing to do, imo.
 
  • #777
oh sorry, I understood. I was agreeing with you, but didnt word it very well.
I know, but "Better safe than sorry"
If you know what I mean :)
 
  • #778
Mr Johnson asks if the stock TPN bag was contaminated to the same degree as the bespoke bag.

Prof Hindmarsh says the glucose concentrations are not much different from 1.54am-10am, when the bag is changed, and after then.

"The contents [and contamination] are probably about the same."

With this are the procesuction accepting its two bags now?

I just don't see how they can put lucy on the 2nd bag, as it was a stock one and she was not there. It was one of the stronger cases against LL in my opinion, until this issue with the bags.
 
  • #779
LL's texts and Facebook searches, in a timeline of the cases, with info known to date.
8 Jun 2015 to 30 Jun 2015



8 Jun 2015, Mon

9.21am -

LL received a text asking her to work night shift.
LL: "Yes that's fine...is it busy?"
Colleague: "We have 3 on CPAP...twins last night...wanted six staff on."
LL: "No problem."


9.25am –

outgoing message from LL to a friend/colleague:
LL: “I'm working tonight and tomorrow now as busy." "Will just have a quiet one today. Slept well. They have 3 30wkers on CPAP."
Colleague: "It will calm down again soon then."


LL reply to another colleague:
LL: "I've been moved forward as busy. Doing tonight and tom."


8pm – LL’s night shift

8.26pm - twin baby (boy) A collapsed

8.58pm - twin baby A pronounced dead - murder charge


9 Jun 2015, Tue

8am – LL finishes night shift

9.58am - Facebook mother of A&B

Before next night shift starts -
LL texted a colleague she didn't want to see [twin] A's parents.
Colleague: "That's understandable."
LL: "Don't mind being in 1 but don't want to have [twin] B."
Colleague offers to look after B, with LL also present in the room.
LL agrees and says: "I think it'd be good for you."


Later –
Colleague: 'Hi Lucy. Hope you are OK?'
LL: 'I think we all did everything we possibly could under very difficult and sad circumstances. Haven't had much sleep. Don't really want to see parents but it's got to be done. 'I said to [nurse] that I can't look after B because I just don't know how I'm going to feel seeing parents. Dad was on the floor crying saying ''please don't take our baby away'' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heartbreaking. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Hopefully have a more positive one tonight.'
Colleague responded saying she would prefer that LL cared for B so her parents 'don't have a totally new face'.


6.38pm -
A nurse messaged LL: 'You did amazing. I'm so proud of you. Hope that doesn't sound patronising…You did fab.'

Another colleague texted: 'I can't imagine how hard that must have been.'


8pm – LL’s night shift

LL to a colleague: "Hard coming back in tonight."

Later:
Colleague: 'We do have a good team. I just wish I could have given you the night off, but you're all needed.'
LL: 'It's the last time I do you a favour changing shifts! Haha!'



10 Jun 2015, Wed

12.30am - twin B (girl) collapsed - attempted murder charge. Designated nurse’s handover sheet for B found at LL’s home during police search.

8am – LL finishes night shift

Just after noon - 12.04pm
LL to a colleague: 'Will you let me know if any change with B.'
Colleague says the shift was "manic", and there had been "no change" with B.


Later –
LL texted a colleague to say she had been watching a TV documentary about life on a neonatal unit “An Hour To Save Your Life”.
Colleague: ….'get enough in work'.
LL: 'I just find it interesting, to see how our work is portrayed to the public.'


10.08pm –
LL again texted enquiring about B and was informed B was "looking really good".

11.09pm –
The same colleague told LL that the parents of twin A had taken a memory box for him.
LL: 'Oh good'. 'Hoped they would find comfort'.


11.31pm - Facebook mother of A&B


11 Jun 2015, Thu

Text messages show LL asking if there were spare shifts going, adding: "Think I need to throw myself back in on Saturday."
Colleague: "Hopefully it might settle down by then."
LL: "I think from a confidence point of view I need to take an ITU baby soon."
Colleague: "It does knock you a bit when things like that happen, but it's ok to have time out as well. Enjoy the sun"



12 Jun 2015, Fri

LL texted a colleague who had been off work after looking after A when he was born: "Hi [nurse] - you may have heard by now but wanted to let you know that we lost little A on Monday. Knew you looked after him."
Colleague: "I didn't know actually, thanks for letting me know. That's terrible!"
LL: "It was awful...he died very suddenly and unexpectedly just after handover. Not sure why. It's gone to the coroner. They are querying a clotting problem. Very sad.”
Colleague: "Oh god, he was doing really well when I left."
LL: 'Just collapsed very suddenly. Awful. He had really good day on Monday then I took over Monday night'. ‘Waiting for post-mortem results. Hopefully they can get to the bottom of it.’
Colleague: 'I'm sorry it happened when you were taking care of him. You're not having a good run at the moment.'
LL: 'I wasn't supposed to be in either - [boss] swapped my nights as unit busy - but these things happen unfortunately. I took pictures, hand and footprints etc. They are besides themselves worried that they will lose B too.’
Colleague: "Yeah it's the business we are in unfortunately. Hopefully B will be ok in the end."



13 Jun 2015, Sat

8pm – LL’s night shift

9.48pm –
JJ-K: "You ok? x"
LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but [nurse] said no x"
JJ-K: "I agree with her, don't think it will help. You need a break from full-on ICU, you have to let it go or it will eat you up."
LL: "Not the vented baby necessarily, I just feel I need to be in 1, to get the image out of my head. To be in 3 is eating me up. All I can see is him in 1. It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel x"
JJ-K: “It sounds very odd and I’d be complete opposite.
LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”
JJ-K: “I think they do respect it but also trying to help you. Why don’t you go in 1 for a bit?”
LL: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1. I’ll be fine. Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job but just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"
JJ-K: "I am not going to forget but think you're way too hard on yourself."
11pm - The WhatsApp conversation concludes at around 11pm.


11pm - baby C (boy) 1st collapse after designated nurse left the room

11.15pm - baby C 2nd collapse - while designated nurse on computer - could not be revived


14 Jun 2015, Sun

5.58am - baby C pronounced dead - murder charge

8am – LL finishes night shift

Morning, after work –
LL to JJ-K: "Sorry if I was off, just wasn’t a great start to the shift but sadly it got worse."
JJ-K: "You weren't off, you just were not happy and there is nothing I could say that was going to make it any better."
LL: "I was struggling to accept what happened to A, now we’ve lost C as well and it's all a bit much."
JJ-K: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately. Maybe you’ll feel better when you know what happened to A. So sad. It's a very sad part of our job and I think because we don’t see it much it’s harder." JJ-K recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had “overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".
LL: "C is the little 800g baby. He went off very suddenly. I know it happens but it's so sad and cruel isn’t it. X” “I just keep seeing them both. No one should have to see and do the things we do. It’s heartbreaking.”
JJ-K: "Hoping you are going to ok, this is not like you. Sending the biggest hugs."
LL: "It's heartbreaking but it's not about me, we learn to deal with it."
JJ-K: It’s horrible and heartbreaking, I don’t think those babies ever leave you. Chin up chuck we will get through it together."
LL: "It's not about me or anyone else, it's about those poor parents who have to walk away without their baby. It’s so unbelievably sad."
Messages are relayed detailing how nursing staff on the night shift were upset by what happened.
JJ-K: "This is where we have to pull together and look after each other."
LL: "Think we support each other brilliantly...just such a shock especially after Monday."
JJ-K advises LL to "switch off for a bit".


Before 10.12am –
LL messaged her own mum: "We lost a little one overnight. Very unexpected and sad xx" LL added: "He only weighed 800g. Sophie the new girl was looking after him, she was devastated."

Before 10.12am –
LL messaged another colleague asking when she is next at work, before adding: "We lost little C overnight, everyone's devastated."
Colleague: "Damn. Infection? Crap week. How is B?"
LL gives an update and says, for C: "Doing well on Optiflow. Then collapsed. All happened very quickly. Sophie had him and is devastated."
Colleague: "Damn. As quick as A?
Colleague or LL?: Yeah, s*** week."
LL: "Parents sat with C in the family room...persuaded them to have hand and footprints but they just wanted to go home."
Colleague: "That is so sad, don't know what to say."
LL: "There are no words, it's been awful."
Colleague: "It's a really tough week, especially for you."
10.12am - The text conversation ends.


3.32pm - Facebook parents baby C

Afternoon –
A text conversation LL has with a third colleague, Sophie Ellis, (C’s designated nurse):
LL: "I don't really want to go in tonight."
SE: "I don't particularly but we will get each other through it."
LL: "We are a good team and we will get through. You did so, so well."
SE: "We all did - so lucky to work with such an amazing and supportive team."



21 Jun 2015, Sun - Father’s Day

8pm – LL’s night shift


22 Jun 2015, Mon

1.30am - baby D (girl) 1st collapse while designated nurse on 1hr break

3am – baby D 2nd collapse

3.45am – baby D 3rd and final collapse

4.25am – baby D pronounced dead - murder charge

8am – LL finishes night shift

8.36am –
LL: "We had such a rubbish night. Our job is just far too sad sometimes."
Colleague: "No, what happened?"
LL: "We lost baby D."
Colleague: "What!!!! But she was improving. What happened? I can't believe you were on again. You are having such a tough time."
LL: "messed about a couple of times and came out in this weird rash looking like overwhelming sepsis, then collapsed and had full resus. So upsetting for everyone. Parents absolutely devastated, dad screaming. Andrew Brunton and Liz Newby said it will probably be investigated. Dad is beside himself.”
Colleague: "Dad was very anxious all day." adding, in relation to the investigation, "What the delay in treatment?"
LL: "Just overall looking into the case. And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis."
The colleague refers to what D looked like in their care. “D was behaving septic. Damn, poor family. You okay?”
LL: It’s just been another shock for us all. I feel a bit numb this time. But it's part of the job and it's hard for everyone."
Colleague: "Yes but you have had it all recently. Oh hun. You need a break.”
LL: "Hmm well it's happened and that is it, got to carry on. Sorry to moan to you. Not what you want to hear first thing.
Colleague: It’s fine, I want to know. I was there when she came in. More importantly I’m always here for you and it’s not moaning. We have the shittiest job in the world sometimes, and the best.
LL: Absolutely, on a day to day basis it’s an incredible job with so many positives but then sometimes I think how is it such sick babies get through and others die so suddenly and unexpectedly. Guess it’s how it’s meant to be.
Colleague: We’re a good team that give excellent care. We just don’t have magic wands.
LL: I know that. I think there is an element of fate involved, there’s a reason for everything.
Colleague: “You go to bed, you’re an excellent nurse Lucy. Don’t forget it. It's important to remember that a death is not a failure."
LL: I know and I don’t feel it’s a failure as such, more than it’s just very sad to know what families go through.
LL refers to her planned time off. The conversation then discusses staffing arrangements, and the difficulties of the job, before noting an instance of a happier occasion on the unit.



23 Jun 2015, Tue

8pm – LL’s night shift

Evening –
Colleague: "How you doing?"
LL: "I'm ok - trying not to think about it. Work busy but at least we have 6 tonight."
Colleague asks about D and whether anything had been said about not "bringing her through sooner on Saturday".
LL: "I don't think so", before adding there was a theory D may have had meningitis.
Colleague: "I'm worried I missed something."
LL: "I don't think any of us did and she was on the right antibiotics."
Colleague: "Yeah, just would treatment sooner have made a difference."
LL asks her colleague if D had a lumbar puncture.
The colleague replies she was not sure it ever got done, given that D had been ill and had been on CPAP. She adds her gas reading was "appalling" when she first came through to the unit.
LL: "I think we did what we could." LL then refers to the condition of the mother of baby D.



25 Jun 2015, Thu

9.50pm – Facebook mother of A&B
9.51pm – Facebook parents of baby D



26 Jun 2015, Fri

LL messaged colleague Minna Lappalainen: "Work has been awful."
ML: "Oh dear. Staffing probe?"
LL: "We have had three unexpected deaths, transfer out, few sick ones, unit full”. "What I’ve seen has really hit me tonight."
ML: "Have you worked today?"
LL: "No, been off since Wednesday morning and now it has all hit me."
ML asks if LL tries "talking to a proper counsellor".
LL replies that she does not think she can.
ML: "Why not?"
LL: "I can't talk about it now...I can't stop crying...I just need to get it out of my system."
ML advises LL to think carefully what to do, before adding: "Maybe you need to take time off."
LL: "Work is always my priority. I won’t let it affect it. I just haven’t let myself cry over it until now. Once I’ve let it out my head will be clear."



30 Jun 2015, Tue

LL texted a colleague that baby B had moved to a recovery room in the unit.
Colleague: "There's something odd about that night and the other three that went so suddenly."
LL: "What do you mean? Odd that we lost three and in different circumstances?'
Colleague: "I don't know, were they that different?" "Ignore me, I'm speculating."
LL: "C was tiny, obviously compromised in utero. D septic. It's A I can't get my head around."


Later –
LL to a colleague: said she was 'nodding off' in a cinema. She added: "I had a mini meltdown last night about what's happened at work..."I just need some time off with mum and dad."
 
  • #780
I can understand why bereaved or affected parents are giving their evidence from behind a screen, but I don't get why some former colleagues are. They are not victims, and by the evidence tendered LL is of no threat to them, they are in the wrong demographic.
 
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