UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

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  • #721
Not a good day for the prosecution. So far they have done such a great job, but it feels like they have been totally blindsided by this monitor being switched off by doctors and not LL thing. How could this not have been picked up in research before trial?

Also in the Daily Mail article today, it said Dr Gibb admitted that the excessive handling required to cannulate baby G (8 attempts) could have led to the desaturation and collapse.
 
  • #722
Today a consultant testified that although he doesn't remember the interaction he believes that the nurse wouldn't make it up and therefore it must have happened
That’s crazy to me he would accept he had apologised from something he doesn’t remember, or that he doesn’t even remember apologising.

Out of the four people involved. The nurse remembers it. The other three don’t?
 
  • #723
I have no doubt=it happened IMO

Must have happened = certain doubt
IMO

Example:

I saw her yesterday vs
I must have seen her (but Im not sure)
JMO

Am I mistaken?
Oh well :/
If your jewellery is missing and there's a broken window you can say 'I must have been burgled' - there's no reasonable alternative.

'presumably that's what happened' (like this testimony today) is someone told you something, you didn't think that previously but you trust them - but there are alternatives - the other person might not have the facts. you are agreeing because you don't have proof and can't remember it yourself. It's not as certain as must.
 
  • #724
That’s crazy to me he would accept he had apologised from something he doesn’t remember, or that he doesn’t even remember apologising.

Out of the four people involved. The nurse remembers it. The other three don’t?
Yeah, but if someone has a positive recall of something happening that was so significant they reported it, that's potentially more reliable then three other people not remembering it. It may not have been salient for those three people.

Alternatively the nurse could be lying for nefarious purposes, or could be confusing this incident with another unrelated one. On the balance of probabilities this doesn't seem likely. Although maybe Dr harness's testimony could sway this
 
  • #725

Sorry if it has already been posted, but this report of Mr Myers's cross-examination of Dr Gibbs today makes you realise just how much we are missing when we read the brief reports from Twitter, etc. IMO.

Edited: Sorry, a very similar article has already been posted.
 
  • #726
I'm not sure what the hierarchy is, but as a British person, it's still weird for me to see KC instead of QC, following Queen Elizabeth II's death.
I'm an expat in Canada, and it took me several minutes to realise that KC stood for King's Council. I was too used to seeing and hearing QC.
 
  • #727
Nothing on Chester Standard this morning...
 
  • #728
  • #729
Sorry I'm going to be off for a while - but these are the tweets so far

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr David Harkness, who was a registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2015, is due to give evidence this morning. Will focus on the events of 21 September 2015. On that morning Child G had a second incident of projectile vomiting and that afternoon needed resuscitation

Dr Harkness tells the court he was on a day shift on 21 September. He says he cannot remember, aside from using his notes, the events of that day

Court is being shown notes from that day, which show there were seven attempts to cannulate Child G. Dr Harkness' colleague Dr John Gibbs told the court yesterday that in babies, such as Child G, that require a lot of intensive care there can be issues with cannulation

Dr Harkness is recalling the cannulation of Child G at around 15:30 BST that day...he says he was assisting Dr Gibbs. He said he was there to pass equipment and keep baby still - jobs normally carried out by a nurse.

Asked why a nurse did not assist, he said 'I expect nurses were very busy, but can't be specific why'

Dr Harkness is now being asked if he remembers whether Child G was hooked up to a monitor. He says she was. He is asked if the sensor from the monitor was moved while attempting cannulation. He cannot remember

He is asked if a sensor would ever be moved, he said it 'would occasionally be moved from one to limb to other'. He agrees it is important to keep a monitor on and attached. He says it is 'not safe' to turn such a monitor off

Asked if he turned Child G's monitor off, he says 'I'm even sure I know how to turn off that particular monitor…at no point would I have turned it off'

After the cannulation, Dr Harkness is asked whether he remembers having any conversations with anyone. He says he has a 'vague' recollection of speaking to a member of nursing staff
 
  • #730
Ben Myers KC, defending, put it to Dr Harkness that he and Dr Gibbs left Child G behind a screen, detached from the monitor, and had failed to inform nursing staff.

Dr Harkness repeatedly says he 'can't remember'. On the monitor being switched off, he flatly says 'no'

On the accusation he did not inform nursing staff and left Child G unattended, he said 'I don’t think so, it's highly unlikely'

Yesterday a nurse, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the court that Dr Gibbs and Dr Harkness apologised to her for not switching the monitor back on after fitting the cannula.

Dr Harkness says he 'can't remember' whether such a conversation took place

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  • #731
Court now taking a short break for legal discussion

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  • #732
Court now taking a short break for legal discussion

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I wonder if part of that discussion will include exploring why a nurses witness testimony explicitly stated that she “read online” regarding the monitor, yet we’ve not yet heard this mentioned in the notes or text exchange. I find that very strange. Moo
 
  • #733
Ben Myers KC, defending, put it to Dr Harkness that he and Dr Gibbs left Child G behind a screen, detached from the monitor, and had failed to inform nursing staff.

Dr Harkness repeatedly says he 'can't remember'. On the monitor being switched off, he flatly says 'no'

On the accusation he did not inform nursing staff and left Child G unattended, he said 'I don’t think so, it's highly unlikely'

Yesterday a nurse, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the court that Dr Gibbs and Dr Harkness apologised to her for not switching the monitor back on after fitting the cannula.

Dr Harkness says he 'can't remember' whether such a conversation took place

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I think this is damaging to the prosecution, the responses of the Dr. being certain he did not turn off the monitor but not remembering the conversation with the nurse.
 
  • #734
I think this is damaging to the prosecution, the responses of the Dr. being certain he did not turn off the monitor but not remembering the conversation with the nurse.
It's almost like the doctors are on trial at this point, IMO.
 
  • #735
I think this is damaging to the prosecution, the responses of the Dr. being certain he did not turn off the monitor but not remembering the conversation with the nurse.

He also says he cant remember leaving the baby unattended but says its unlikely

He seems sure about the monitor as he says he doesn't even know how to on that brand.

Its all a bit of a mess and with hindsight this one part of three should have been left out the other 2 are more clear
 
  • #736
He also says he cant remember leaving the baby unattended but says its unlikely

He seems sure about the monitor as he says he doesn't even know how to on that brand.

Its all a bit of a mess and with hindsight this one part of three should have been left out the other 2 are more clear
I don't think it helps his case to say he doesn't know how to turn it off. That could mean he turned it off accidentally, and that he would not have known how to turn it on again, IMO.
 
  • #737
This does not look good for the prosecution. I personally don't think it means a lot. And if G then it could be that LL took the opportunity with the monitor being off. But the defence are pulling it apart now and the Drs haven't helped the situation.

But if she noticed the monitor was off why didn't she turn it back on?

If she is G then its an opportunity to do harm without the monitor being on and also having a privacy screen up and then claim credit for saving the day.

Is it common for the Drs to hand care over without turning the monitor on. If so then it presents a perfect opportunity for LL to strike.

The prosecution can't exactly say this though now, would the jury even presume that. Are they even allowed to make presumptions?
 
  • #738
This does not look good for the prosecution. I personally don't think it means a lot. And if G then it could be that LL took the opportunity with the monitor being off. But the defence are pulling it apart now and the Drs haven't helped the situation.

But if she noticed the monitor was off why didn't she turn it back on?

If she is G then its an opportunity to do harm without the monitor being on and also having a privacy screen up and then claim credit for saving the day.

Is it common for the Drs to hand care over without turning the monitor on. If so then it presents a perfect opportunity for LL to strike.

The prosecution can't exactly say this though now, would the jury even presume that. Are they even allowed to make presumptions?

I dont think the prosecution actually said she turned it off ..more insinuated it ..though can't remember 100%
It's definitely not common for Dr's to just walk away from behind a screen .. even in an emergency they would tell a nurse they were leaving.

The biggest thing for me is there is nothing mentioned in LLs texts ..there are criticisms around decisions etc but absolutely nothing about Dr leaving the baby with no monitor..it doesn't sit well with me
 
  • #739
I'm getting a little nervous at the length of this 'short' break for legal discussion...
 
  • #740
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